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P&D Trainer & Assessor
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am working on a smart phone or tablet app that a tradesperson can use to collect evidence to present to a training organisation in order to receive a skills assessment for the Certificate III qualification.

In other words, where a painter has not done any formal training but has worked in the industry for many years he/she will be able to use this application on a smart device to fill in and collect evidence so that they may receive the formal Australian qualification for Painting & Decorating.

This could be good for painters living in the states or UK that are wanting to do a skills migration to Australia as well.

I am creating outcomes I know a tradesperson demonstrates daily or weekly and mapping these back to the qualification we have in Australia.

Then creating benchmarks to measure these and provide evidence. I NEED HELP, what is a task that any tradesperson with experience should be able to do as an outcome. For example: "applies paint by brush and roller with no visible defects standing at a distance of 1.2 metres. All surrounding area is clean and free of any paint."

Can you please give me a bench mark statement on any outcome that you are confident any trades person with experience can demonstrate?
 

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haha mike! you were my tafe teacher at toowoomba sqit, dallas told me you went to fiji dont blame ya lol

dont know how to answer your question tho, is the app like the competency books from tafe? something like - applied paint by cuttting in the border first and making sure to cut straight lines then rolled the wall making sure to keep a wet edge so there's even film thickness?? something along those lines do you have to bring technique and preparation into it??
 

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P&D Trainer & Assessor
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
haha mike! you were my tafe teacher at toowoomba sqit, dallas told me you went to fiji dont blame ya lol

dont know how to answer your question tho, is the app like the competency books from tafe? something like - applied paint by cuttting in the border first and making sure to cut straight lines then rolled the wall making sure to keep a wet edge so there's even film thickness?? something along those lines do you have to bring technique and preparation into it??
Great to hear from you, so am I going to know who you are, or are you going to keep me guessing?

Anyway, what you mentioned sounds great, but don't think like TAFE, think like a trades person. What would you expect a person to be able to do and know if they really are a painter?

I really am looking for a tradespersons perspective.

On another note, yeah I have been in Fiji for five years, I must have nearly a 1000 students out there somewhere after 14 years of teaching. But I remember just about of all of them. I really cared about what happened to you gang, I hope you are doing okay with the trade. It is a privilege to do what I do!
 

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painter extraordinaire
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Michael,
I am like you in regards to us both doing 4 year apprenticeships in painting and decorating. My issue is that some of my unqualified brush hand laborers are doing their certificate 111 in painting over a few weekends to get the trade certificate. I reckon thats not a proper training schedule.
How can you possibly learn the trade over a few weekends ? I do acknowledge they have been taught well by myself in a professional tradesman like manor and this is credited to them. The weekend course is very basic and is not what I regard as proper training.
 

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P&D Trainer & Assessor
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Brian C said:
Michael,
I am like you in regards to us both doing 4 year apprenticeships in painting and decorating. My issue is that some of my unqualified brush hand laborers are doing their certificate 111 in painting over a few weekends to get the trade certificate. I reckon thats not a proper training schedule.
How can you possibly learn the trade over a few weekends ? I do acknowledge they have been taught well by myself in a professional tradesman like manor and this is credited to them. The weekend course is very basic and is not what I regard as proper training.
I think it will get worse Brian. Actually, I believe 99% of the training happens with you the employer anyway. What I believe we should be doing is supporting you. I think TAFE needs to work closer with the employers assisting in areas that you may not have the time or resources to train your apprentice. We should be collecting evidence for you and assisting you with your training.

With regard to the RPL tool, some states don't have formal training such as the NT. They are getting some help now through strategic partnerships with the National Institute of Painting and Decorating www.painters.edu.au (I sit on the board of this and I am very proud of what it is achieving) I hope that this tool may be a best practice tool that recognizes real skills, not just dry qualification specifications talk.

Be good to hear your comments Brian.
 

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leith i was there from 03-07 bit of a joker :jester: haha

i dont know how i would put into a phrase what i expect from a tradesman, i'll have to ponder on it
 

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PinheadsUnite
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I am working on a smart phone or tablet app that a tradesperson can use to collect evidence to present to a training organisation in order to receive a skills assessment for the Certificate III qualification.

In other words, where a painter has not done any formal training but has worked in the industry for many years he/she will be able to use this application on a smart device to fill in and collect evidence so that they may receive the formal Australian qualification for Painting & Decorating.

This could be good for painters living in the states or UK that are wanting to do a skills migration to Australia as well.

I am creating outcomes I know a tradesperson demonstrates daily or weekly and mapping these back to the qualification we have in Australia.

Then creating benchmarks to measure these and provide evidence. I NEED HELP, what is a task that any tradesperson with experience should be able to do as an outcome. For example: "applies paint by brush and roller with no visible defects standing at a distance of 1.2 metres. All surrounding area is clean and free of any paint."

Can you please give me a bench mark statement on any outcome that you are confident any trades person with experience can demonstrate?
Michael,

I'm not completely sure if I understand your question, so excuse me if I am misleading you.

My first thought was the PDCA standards that define (can't remember exactly which numbered standard) acceptable quality of work performed.

You can down load the PDCA Standards at
http://www.pdca.org/governance/standards/

You will notice they have restrictions about disbursing them, but I am sure you can use them as a place to start.
 

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Brian C said:
Michael,
I am like you in regards to us both doing 4 year apprenticeships in painting and decorating. My issue is that some of my unqualified brush hand laborers are doing their certificate 111 in painting over a few weekends to get the trade certificate. I reckon thats not a proper training schedule.
How can you possibly learn the trade over a few weekends ? I do acknowledge they have been taught well by myself in a professional tradesman like manor and this is credited to them. The weekend course is very basic and is not what I regard as proper training.
G'day Brian

I feel the same as you in regards to gaining qualification as a Painter
 

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P&D Trainer & Assessor
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
oz_painter said:
leith i was there from 03-07 bit of a joker :jester: haha

i dont know how i would put into a phrase what i expect from a tradesman, i'll have to ponder on it
Good to hear from you Leith, I hope it is all going okay for you, all the best.
 

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P&D Trainer & Assessor
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks Bill for the link. This process is about validation, when I complete the benchmarks I will demonstrate ways I moderated with industry as a form of validation.

For our friends from the USA, RPL is Recognition of Prior Learning, in other words recognizing skills acquired over the years without being enrolled as an apprentice and doing a formal 3 or 4 year aprenticship. It is controversial in Australia because most tradespeople that have worked hard to "do there time" are not happy competing with people that did not do an apprenticeship. I completely understand how frustrating that can be.

With regard to the comments on RPL, basic fact of the matter is, it is not going to go away. It will be there in a bigger way when national licensing comes in. http://www.painters.edu.au/Business-Development/Licensing.htm If anyone would like to take the survey visit this link: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/KTT62CT

We can't say to one of the painters that have been on a brush for 20 years that they need to do their time. It probably was not their fault that they did not do an apprenticeship, and if licensing comes in should we tell them to stop business becuase they did not jump, through the hoops? I think it is interesting that most of the very high level proffesional conversations on this forum come from over seas where they do not have an apprenticeship system. I would dare say that they may not have done there time in a formal context,, but informally they have done their time.

On the other hand RPL does not mean that they don't go to college, they will still have to do training, but only where they need training.

If I set up a set of reasonable benchmarks that mirrored what we should expect of proffesional tradespeople, then it should sort out the dodgy brush hands. We as an industry should drive the RPL, otherwise some desk jockey will de driving the standards that a trades person should meet.

Remember, I am a TAFE teacher, so I have my job at stake not supporting apprenticeships. But I have to be realistic and face the fact RPL is there, and some will not do an apprenticeship.
 

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PinheadsUnite
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Good points Michael.

I definitely didn't "do my my time", but I sure did my time.

Those of us who have survived having been self taught obviously learned something through trial and error AND by keeping our ears and minds open.

sometimes I think that self taught craftsmen have a wider range of knowledge because they have listened to so many others over the years, that they actually have more "tools" in the toolbox than those who were taught one discipline from one school or one mentor. But that could just be a biased opinion, but I do try to sell it to my customers :whistling2:

But anyway, I like what you are doing, trying to allow the system work for the betterment of all.
 
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