[TCLordCarpentry]

What’s up guys?

Been visiting this site for a while now for insight and tips, etc. Ton of knowledgeable folks, so thank you for that.

Straight to the point—I’m wondering what is everyone’s airless spray process for spraying cabinet face frames in the vertical/installed position. I just went through hell spraying virgin soft maple with California Ultra Aquaborne Ceramic in satin. I sprayed on a coat of SW wall and wood first and then the California and it was all just downhill from there.

210 FFLP tip. Without going too much into detail for the moment, I tried a different approach for every coat, each of which were one or two days apart, and I was never able to keep the paint from sagging. Like, almost immediately.

I sprayed the doors horizontal, one side at a time. They came out beautiful.
But yeah I’m completely stumped and it’s extremely frustrating for me when I can’t track down the cause of a problem.

If you want to know more about my approach, I’d be glad to answer questions but I’m sure I’ll get a ton of good advice by just hearing how some of you prep and shoot your cabinets.

Thanks guys.

 

[MikeCalifornia]

210 is way to big for that kind of material and surface. I do not like anything 2xx for reasons of paint concentration over a small space 2-4". I prefer 3xx for everything. That said, I use 310 for primer on horizontal doors, and 308 for primer on cabinet boxes. I use 308 for topcoat horizontal, and 306 for boxes. Spraying boxes is hard. Watching videos will not give you any good advice as most guys go full trigger and 90 at a corner. What I do is spray the inside lips first with inside of open cabinets as well, also the kickplates at the bottom and any sides of false drawer fronts. Then after 15-20 minutes, spray all the faces and sides, just using vertical strokes with the fan going horizontal, gun straight up. This way I am not overlapping other than my normal passes. I also try and full trigger stopping at the bottom if I need to to keep any spitting off the faces. This works good for me, as I cannot keep cabinet finishes from running if I try and do everything at the same time. Also, make a spray plan before you start. Like where you should start and finish to keep the line off your finish. Also any connecting cabinets from top to bottom will make for a unique transition.

 

[TCLordCarpentry]

210 is way to big for that kind of material and surface. I do not like anything 2xx for reasons of paint concentration over a small space 2-4". I prefer 3xx for everything. That said, I use 310 for primer on horizontal doors, and 308 for primer on cabinet boxes. I use 308 for topcoat horizontal, and 306 for boxes. Spraying boxes is hard. Watching videos will not give you any good advice as most guys go full trigger and 90 at a corner. What I do is spray the inside lips first with inside of open cabinets as well, also the kickplates at the bottom and any sides of false drawer fronts. Then after 15-20 minutes, spray all the faces and sides, just using vertical strokes with the fan going horizontal, gun straight up. This way I am not overlapping other than my normal passes. I also try and full trigger stopping at the bottom if I need to to keep any spitting off the faces. This works good for me, as I cannot keep cabinet finishes from running if I try and do everything at the same time. Also, make a spray plan before you start. Like where you should start and finish to keep the line off your finish. Also any connecting cabinets from top to bottom will make for a unique transition.

You know, I was wondering if the tip was inappropriate. That’s probably the one and only variable that I did not alter throughout the whole process. When you say you think the 2xx tip is too big for that application, do you mean too high of a material concentration? I figured it would a good bet for the frames but I do often read that the 3xx is a go-to.

I like your approach—kind of relies on not trying to do too much at once. Funny, on my last coat I actually employed that one-direction technique, planned the spray so that I’d end up only overlapping my previous run just like you said. Kept the gun a bit further from the cabinets, too. Figured that would be the money technique. Nope. Started sagging yet again.

 

[MikeCalifornia]

You may already know this but for tips and sizing. The first number is the fan width, usually double, so for a 2xx its 4", then the preceding numbers are the orifice size. So for you a 210, is a 0.010" That means very little except smaller hole, less material when the gun is triggered. Numbers that are even, are double orifice tips, meaning there is a small pre-orifice in the back of the tip, then the actual tip that cuts the shape in the front. An odd number is just a regular tip, no pre-orifice in the back. Double orifice tips are just what you need for fine finishing. Regular tips for spraying primer, flats, wall finishes.

So the most important part is no matter what size of x10 you have, it is the same amount of material spread across the fan width. So for a 210, that amount equates to some gallon per minute number, see graco chart for it. But with a 310, the fluid amount is the same but spread over a distance 50% greater. With a 410, that amount is spread over 100% greater and so on. I'm going to assume you are fairly new to spraying, which is fine, but you get better with more practice obviously. It is hard to recreate a job scenerio at home, just playing around.

Hope this helps, shoot me an IM if you have questions.

 

[thepm4]

@MikeCalifornia
I've challenged myself to venture into spraying (with what I have equipment-wise, what to actually invest in and being more of a decorative artist/handwork person from the start)the last few years...thanks for those posts...truly.

 

[TCLordCarpentry]

You may already know this but for tips and sizing. The first number is the fan width, usually double, so for a 2xx its 4", then the preceding numbers are the orifice size. So for you a 210, is a 0.010" That means very little except smaller hole, less material when the gun is triggered. Numbers that are even, are double orifice tips, meaning there is a small pre-orifice in the back of the tip, then the actual tip that cuts the shape in the front. An odd number is just a regular tip, no pre-orifice in the back. Double orifice tips are just what you need for fine finishing. Regular tips for spraying primer, flats, wall finishes.

So the most important part is no matter what size of x10 you have, it is the same amount of material spread across the fan width. So for a 210, that amount equates to some gallon per minute number, see graco chart for it. But with a 310, the fluid amount is the same but spread over a distance 50% greater. With a 410, that amount is spread over 100% greater and so on. I'm going to assume you are fairly new to spraying, which is fine, but you get better with more practice obviously. It is hard to recreate a job scenerio at home, just playing around.

Hope this helps, shoot me an IM if you have questions.

Perfect. Thanks for the info. Executing and comparing notes is the key, especially with us always working with such a spectrum of deadlines, materials, tools, clients, etc. No growth in the comfort zone, no comfort in the growth zone.

 

[MikeCalifornia]

Perfect. Thanks for the info. Executing and comparing notes is the key, especially with us always working with such a spectrum of deadlines, materials, tools, clients, etc. No growth in the comfort zone, no comfort in the growth zone.

Exactly, hence the reason you should always be specifying the products you will use. I don't think this is the case here, but never let the customer determine what materials you will use. When you go in blind with a product, it can bite you in the rear. Especially cabinet finishes, which can be super finicky. Experiment at home with demo products that reps want you to try, never use new products on a paid job!!

 

[fromthenorthwest]

Everything @MikeCalifornia said is dead on. And I would just add there is a product by Renner called 'Superhang' that does just that. First time I've seen an airless applied water-based paint dry down tight and truly resemble a factory finish on verticals. The only hassle is you have to order in the mail but once you get that figured out it will make you look good.

 

[MikeCalifornia]

Everything @MikeCalifornia said is dead on. And I would just add there is a product by Renner called 'Superhang' that does just that. First time I've seen an airless applied water-based paint dry down tight and truly resemble a factory finish on verticals. The only hassle is you have to order in the mail but once you get that figured out it will make you look good.

I have never heard of that product yet, but I use Envirolak and add the thickner to my batch when spraying the cabinets, and it works very well.

 

[TCLordCarpentry]

Never heard of either of those but noted for sure. Definitely doesn’t look like they’re sold anywhere local, though I was able to find the renner online. We do have local hardware stores that focus quite a bit on Ben Moore so maybe it would be worth it to get a product/application system down with it. Also hear good things about SW emerald urethane

 

[fromthenorthwest]

I have never heard of that product yet, but I use Envirolak and add the thickner to my batch when spraying the cabinets, and it works very well.

Are you spraying that with straight airless or are you using your airless/compressor/ G40 setup? I haven't used Envirolak top coats but I've tried a couple of their primers and really liked the 170.

 

[fromthenorthwest]

Never heard of either of those but noted for sure. Definitely doesn’t look like they’re sold anywhere local, though I was able to find the renner online. We do have local hardware stores that focus quite a bit on Ben Moore so maybe it would be worth it to get a product/application system down with it. Also hear good things about SW emerald urethane

I used Benjamin Moore Scuff-x for a couple years and had pretty good results. I would definitely use that over Emerald. Emerald stays tacky for too long. If you do use Sherwin check out the new Gallery series, it's a spin-off from a product called Sayerlack and superior to both Scuff-X and Emerald for cabinetry. More on par with what you would get from Renner, etc.

I hear you on using locally owned stores that use BM, I do a majority of my business with them, mainly for that reason that they're local. But after doing enough kitchens and experimenting with some of these online products I realized they were much more suitable for cabinets, both in durability and finish look. Now if you an AAA setup you can probably get a comparable looking finish with the off the shelf stuff, but I'm airless only for now.

 

[MikeCalifornia]

Are you spraying that with straight airless or are you using your airless/compressor/ G40 setup? I haven't used Envirolak top coats but I've tried a couple of their primers and really liked the 170.

I have been rolling with straight airless out of the ED655's. It's more of a paint to haul all the extra equipment around, but the gun and pressure control is so much better on AAA. Wish I had the funds to get a CA Tech complete setup.
So Envirolak just released a new 1k one coat topcoat, saw the video on facebook, its like 800 series? Granted they were spraying with a compressor system, cross hatched the shiz out of it, but white over black was pretty nice.

 

[fromthenorthwest]

I have been rolling with straight airless out of the ED655's. It's more of a paint to haul all the extra equipment around, but the gun and pressure control is so much better on AAA. Wish I had the funds to get a CA Tech complete setup.
So Envirolak just released a new 1k one coat topcoat, saw the video on facebook, its like 800 series? Granted they were spraying with a compressor system, cross hatched the shiz out of it, but white over black was pretty nice.

Oh really? I'll have to check that 800 series out. Yeah I'd love a full AAA setup one of these years too!

 

[TCLordCarpentry]

Learning a ton here. Admittedly, I had never even heard of AAA systems before this thread. Did some research on them and they do sound like a badass thing to have.

Almost all of my spraying has been airless exterior but I do a lot of finish carpentry which often includes cabinetry and trim assemblies so I’m wondering if HVLP would be worth a shot.

 

[finishesbykevyn]

Learning a ton here. Admittedly, I had never even heard of AAA systems before this thread. Did some research on them and they do sound like a badass thing to have.

Almost all of my spraying has been airless exterior but I do a lot of finish carpentry which often includes cabinetry and trim assemblies so I’m wondering if HVLP would be worth a shot.

Again it depend what products you plan on using. Right tool for the job ..

 

[MikeCalifornia]

Learning a ton here. Admittedly, I had never even heard of AAA systems before this thread. Did some research on them and they do sound like a badass thing to have.

Almost all of my spraying has been airless exterior but I do a lot of finish carpentry which often includes cabinetry and trim assemblies so I’m wondering if HVLP would be worth a shot.

If you can dial in the tips and pressure like discussed, then airless is fine for all your spraying needs. If you delve into HVLP, they are nice for small stuff. I'm not very impressed with the speed on a full set of cabinets, and with a cup on the bottom, they get heavy and make my arm and hands tired.

 

[MikeCalifornia]

Oh really? I'll have to check that 800 series out. Yeah I'd love a full AAA setup one of these years too!

On a more recent video, they did a sag test, sprayed 8mils wet on verticle and smeared it to make 15mils. No sag, pretty neat.

 

[fromthenorthwest]

On a more recent video, they did a sag test, sprayed 8mils wet on verticle and smeared it to make 15mils. No sag, pretty neat.

Oh wow, I think that's even more than the Renner 765, which I believe is 10 mils. I wonder what they're figuring out to make these new coatings hang like that.

 

[Knobbe]

Learning a ton here. Admittedly, I had never even heard of AAA systems before this thread. Did some research on them and they do sound like a badass thing to have.

Almost all of my spraying has been airless exterior but I do a lot of finish carpentry which often includes cabinetry and trim assemblies so I’m wondering if HVLP would be worth a shot.

Try some Tri-Tech fflp tips. All I use are 306, 308, 408. 308 most often. 310 for some primers when spraying doors flat. Highly recommended.