[DeanV]

For my interior repaints, I always have eyeballed the job to get a time and material estimate and worked up a bid from there. The last job I looked at, I measure the wall sq. footage in addition to eyeballing it and crunched the numbers, and it turns out that my eyeball is very accurately calibrated to a production rate of 200 sq. ft. of wall per hour. What production rates do you use for repaint work, including your typically light set-up and light repair (nail holes, a few dings, etc)?

 

[timhag]

Eyeballer here for interior and exterior :thumbsup:

 

[vermontpainter]

I've been working on a new estimating method. I don't go, and yet I am still able to submit my number. All I do is: every day when I get to the office, I run a report and get the avg sale for the last 90 days. Todays report showed an avg sale of $3177 for the last 90 days which is up from yesterdays report. This makes me think that expenses are going up. So I rounded up to $3180, and every call or email that came in looking for a price, I gave this number. Tomorrow I will figure out how much gas I am saving by not physically estimating, and reduce the price accordingly as an incentive to see if my close ratio goes up.

Even though I am getting beat on some of these, its generating alot of word of mouth and work. People are either really happy or really mad at me all the time. The happy people are passing the word along to their friends and neighbors who want to be happy too, so the calls that came in today were all referrals looking for large projects. Word of my pricing is getting out, I am busy and attracting good jobs.

 

[Tonyg]

So I rounded up to $3180, and every call or email that came in looking for a price, I gave this number.

So, if its a $4,000 job, and you give them $3,180, they are the real happy ones and telling everyone how cheap you are. And, if its a $2,000 job, you give them the $3,180 price, and they are telling everyone how expensive you are.

:blink:

 

[vermontpainter]

So, if its a $4,000 job, and you give them $3,180, they are the real happy ones and telling everyone how cheap you are. And, if its a $2,000 job, you give them the $3,180 price, and they are telling everyone how expensive you are.

:blink:

Thats right. But since I know that the avg sale number is always current and adjusted to up to date costs, even if it doesnt work in some cases, I know that the others will make up for it. Thats what makes average estimating effective. Whats cool is I can tell the customer honestly that I am giving them a pretty average price for the work they are requesting.

 

[vermontpainter]

Ok ok. Tony, I know you know I was kidding. And Dean, this was irrelevant to your thread. Sorry for taking up space. I need to stop this before Tsunami comes in and starts asking questions. Some people may take it seriously and try it...we wouldnt want any irresponsible estimating going on amongst the troops. Do not attempt average estimating. I dont think it would be a good idea.

 

[timhag]

Ok ok. Tony, I know you know I was kidding. And Dean, this was irrelevant to your thread. Sorry for taking up space. I need to stop this before Tsunami comes in and starts asking questions. Some people may take it seriously and try it...we wouldnt want any irresponsible estimating going on amongst the troops. Do not attempt average estimating. I dont think it would be a good idea.

Damn V, You's a crazy dude.:laughing::laughing:

 

[DeanV]

Hijack away VP, no problem here. I do realize that not all jobs get the 200 sq. ft. production rate.

 

[HomeGuardPaints]

I don't remember the last time i pulled out the tape for an estimate. but 200- 225 is probably pretty close

 

[tsunamicontract]

I have been eyeballing in and out for a little bit now. Every now and then I measure and I am usually within 6 inches. I got one of those laser measurers for interior and it kind of works, calculates sq footage too. it was only 19 bucks.

 

[Tonyg]

V, I was seriously worried there. Thought you may have fallen off the ladder on your head or something.

I'm actually fairly anal when it comes to measuring. I have tried to be much more systematic and move away from eyeballing. I want to be able (later) to send out someone to do an estimate for me, or even to just have more consistant & accurate estimates across the board.

If the business is in your head then you are the business.

 

[plainpainter]

If the business is in your head then you are the business.

Exactly!

 

[vermontpainter]

Exactly!

I think measuring is the most accurate way. Sometimes though, especially on exteriors, you have to rely on your eyes alot.

 

[Pete's Painting]

Surprised that some of you bigger companies sometimes eyeball. It's easy for someone like me who will be doing at least 70% of the work myself to eyeball and guesstimate how many days I will be there. If I miss, I simply end up working longer days or an extra day.
Hours don't mean anything to me....I'm the only one who works overtime....just takes away from social life. It's days I need to focus on.
I guess if your a bigger company, you really need to know your crew when estimating, and your crew needs to put work out at a consistent rate in order to avoid those labor costs from sucking up your profit.

 

[Brian]

Thats right. But since I know that the avg sale number is always current and adjusted to up to date costs, even if it doesnt work in some cases, I know that the others will make up for it. Thats what makes average estimating effective. Whats cool is I can tell the customer honestly that I am giving them a pretty average price for the work they are requesting.

I don't care who you are, that there is funny stuff.

I'm glad Scott was kidding though, because that is a horrible way to estimate.

Eye-balling can work fine when you are doing the same type of work, you have the same guys doing it, and very little changes. In other words, eye-balling works when there are few variables.

As soon as you start introducing many variables, eye-balling becomes WAG. Eye-balling is essentially the same as estimating by the area of the floor-- it tells you very little about the work you will actually do.

One thing I've found about eye-balling is that it is very easy to miss things-- a lot of things. A nickel here, a dime there, and pretty soon your profit has disappeared. I don't think it is a coincidence that most contractors eye-ball and most contractors don't last 5 years.

Brian Phillips

 

[HomeGuardPaints]

Eye-balling can work fine when you are doing the same type of work, you have the same guys doing it, and very little changes. In other words, eye-balling works when there are few variables.

As soon as you start introducing many variables, eye-balling becomes WAG. Eye-balling is essentially the same as estimating by the area of the floor-- it tells you very little about the work you will actually do.

One thing I've found about eye-balling is that it is very easy to miss things-- a lot of things. A nickel here, a dime there, and pretty soon your profit has disappeared. I don't think it is a coincidence that most contractors eye-ball and most contractors don't last 5 years.

Brian Phillips

thats not the same, its not as if you don't inspect each room and get a visual and basic rough size. I walk in and know how much base, crown, wall space and the amount of time to do the prep. but I don't physically measure. if you go out of business by being off by a foot then you had bigger problems than not measuring.


Also eyeballing comes after estimating for a while, its not something I would suggest a new guy to do, but you only have to walk into so many 12 X 14 rooms and know how long it will take. The eyeball method is still based on the same principles as measuring. You are still quantifying what a particular item will take to complete.

 

[Brian]

thats not the same, its not as if you don't inspect each room and get a visual and basic rough size. I walk in and know how much base, crown, wall space and the amount of time to do the prep. but I don't physically measure. if you go out of business by being off by a foot then you had bigger problems than not measuring.


Also eyeballing comes after estimating for a while, its not something I would suggest a new guy to do, but you only have to walk into so many 12 X 14 rooms and know how long it will take. The eyeball method is still based on the same principles as measuring. You are still quantifying what a particular item will take to complete.

You make a valid point. Actually, several valid points. Being a few feet off shouldn't killl anyone. And if you've seen a bunch of 12 x 14 rooms, you can develop a pretty good sense of the size.

But what if you walk into a 25 x 40 room with an unusual ceiling height? Or any number of other oddities? If you never run into such things, then eye-balling might work fine. I run into all kinds of these situations, and trying to eye-ball them would drive me insane.

Finally, I would argue that you are measuring, though in a bit of a cruder way than we typically mean it. You basically know what a 12 x 14 room looks like. If it's 13 x 15, the world doesn't end. But you know that it isn't 10 x 10, or 20 x 20.

When I hear "eye-ball" I generally think someone walks around and almost arbitrarily comes up with a price. You seem to be more systematic.

Brian Phillips

 

[aaron61]

Eye balling to me is relying on the numbers that I have repeated over and over. I believe I have stated before most of what we do is not rocket science. 12x15x8,12x15x10,12x15 x12,etc... How much furniture to move etc... P I A Factor. Repetition tends to promote confidence. I truly can't remember the last time I used a tape measure. Except for measuring wheel for property walls

 

[DeanV]

For me, when I eyeball I look at every wall, every room, every door, or whatever and write down how long it will take to paint it. It allows me to take into account each items condition, regardless of a fixed sq. ft. rate of wall space.

However, I do plan on spending more time measuring production rates just so I can make sure I am not leaving money on the table and to try to make the process as accurate as possible.

 

[The Painter Guy]

Digital Eyeball

A lot of times I will leave the tape measure and just take digital pictures to look at on computer when I get home. I can zoom in on any areas I think might be trouble and get a decent look at it with out unloading a ladder. Its better than looking at my notes and after so many estimates its kind of a safety net for my memory My estimates are based on past similar jobs and I try to use the old jobs labor and matls costs to bid the new work adjusting for anything thats different.
200 sq ft per hour seems high to me but is that for commercial work instead of residential?