[speedyhotrod]

Good afternoon - first time posting within this forum, I look forward to hearing some of your thoughts and thank you in advance!

Here is the issue:
In February 2014, I was hired to repair lath/plaster walls of cracks, delaminated plaster and ceiling to wall joint cracks. This three level senior's residence (hallways/stairwells only) was repaired/spot primed and repainted using Zero VOC paint - client prerequisite - using SW ProMar 200 0-VOC LS on walls (Basic Khaki - Dulux) and SW ASE Semi 0-VOC on the trim (Sanderling-Dulux). In May of 2015, I received a follow up phone call from the building owners requesting a site visit to consult on an issue they were having with the paint.

Upon inspection, all repainted walls showed varying degrees of 'chalking' or 'chalkiness' (i.e. wipe hand on surface - white powder residue on hand). Within that discussion, they admitted issues with a leaky roof, plaster/paint popping in various places on exterior walls but wanted to know why there was white chalk all over the interior corridor/stairwell walls.

I brought along my rep from SW and we were both somewhat surprised to see the extent of the issue. All walls - all surfaces. Has anyone seen this before? The building is 30-40yrs old - squished mortar/brick facade.

Tomorrow, I will do another site visit and take pictures. They tried washing the walls, but the chalking came back within a week. Basement boiler, building is hot, corridors are hot and dry.

1. What caused(s) this?
2. What would your approach be to repairing/repainting the walls?
3. Would you suggest washing with TSP? (green tsp) or use an Oil primer? Hybrid oil primer? Lock/Block walls and repaint?

I need to put together a plan, your input would be much appreciated.

 

[PACman]

It is called "frosting" and there is a recent post on this when another quality SW product line was used. Clean it as best as you can, use an oil based primer, and use another (better) brand of paint. The lo-voc promar products have a bumped up percentage of cheaper extender pigments, which are usually the root cause of frosting issues.

 

[Oden]

A 30 to 40 year old building that is lathe and plaster? Really ?
I think that building may be a lot older than that and may have all kinds of issues IE leaks and insulation and so on. And not just roof leaks either. All them water/.drain lines, your lines from ur boiler to ur radiators, they leak and they sweat. And that old plaster it crumbles. It looks at first like that surfactant leaching and may well be to some extent. But you know? You weren't patching it together in the first place cause it didn't already have issues. I'd think. But? 30 to 40 years old? Really?

 

[speedyhotrod]

I was told it was built in the late 70's, that said, your point is valid! It could be older, I didn't question it's age any further.

Frosting? I haven't heard that term before. I've seen chalking/frosting on exterior paint - but on interior walls - that's a new one, thus the post.

I take it PACman you're not a big fan of SW paints. Which oil primer do you recommend if it has to be extremely low to no VOC's? And, what is your preferred 0 VOC top coat paint? This would be classified as a 'commercial' building - and a non profit to top it off!

 

[NACE]

Check the surface pH. Sounds like high pH burning the paint, a form of supponification or pH breaking down a cured coating. Use distilled water and a pool water testing kit. If high that may be your problem. Could Calcimine also be present?

 

[speedyhotrod]

These walls were previously painted with a latex paint (light institutional green) other than P200 being an inferior product - would Calcimine work it's way through the previous coats? Was that used to seal the original plaster, or is it contained IN the plaster itself? Is there a test for that? Or, do I ask my SW rep to take a sample to the lab?

I know how to check the PH of a pool, but to check the PH of a wall...can you elaborate on the how of that NACE?

 

[NACE]

These walls were previously painted with a latex paint (light institutional green) other than P200 being an inferior product - would Calcimine work it's way through the previous coats? Was that used to seal the original plaster, or is it contained IN the plaster itself? Is there a test for that? Or, do I ask my SW rep to take a sample to the lab?

I know how to check the PH of a pool, but to check the PH of a wall...can you elaborate on the how of that NACE?

Likely not calcimine based on your description. Test pH by dabbing distilled water in chalky areas and tight adhering areas and stick pH paper or pH stick in the wet area. Depending on the test you use, high pH on the scale would be 13 or dark purple or magenta color. Something broke down the binder in the paint. Alkalinity or high pH is the enemy of latex and oil base coatings.

 

[PRC]

Likely not calcimine based on your description. Test pH by dabbing distilled water in chalky areas and tight adhering areas and stick pH paper or pH stick in the wet area. Depending on the test you use, high pH on the scale would be 13 or dark purple or magenta color. Something broke down the binder in the paint. Alkalinity or high pH is the enemy of latex and oil base coatings.

Just tested a house the other week that had delamination issues. The plaster read anywhere from 4 to 13 depending on the room. What do you think of using masonry conditioner as a first step before primer? Oh and this is not related to moisture issues.

 

[lilpaintchic]

What did the rep say about it?

 

[NACE]

A primer that will tolerate a 13 pH is a good idea as a barrier primer so long as the issue causing the high pH is repaired. High pH can be related to a high lime content in the plaster used to ease troweling by the plasterer. Perhaps the water base paint had sufficient moisture during application to activate the higher pH? Won't know until it's tested.

 

[speedyhotrod]

My meeting is scheduled for the morning at 10. I'll have to keep you posted #lilpaintchic
My guess is...oil prime, recoat, however, due to the 0-VOC limitation, the owner will likely not accept this as an option. I'll keep you posted. So much drama!

 

[speedyhotrod]

therein lies the problem...assuming the 'issue' causing the high PH is repaired.

Determining the cause of the potentially higher pH level is the underlying challenge. I also don't want to be 'blind sided' by either the owner or the rep, i.e. it's my problem to pay for and fix. (2yrs removed) I'll wear my big boy pants tomorrow for sure!

 

[lilpaintchic]

Well if they want 0 voc's you're pretty limited. Big problems require big guns, not bb guns...there's a very good reason that we still have solvents in this industry...

I'm very interested in what the rep recommends. Is there a 0 VOC exterior product available? My first thought is Emerald. and loxon or gardz as a bonding primer (vot sure what the voc's are but I'm pretty sure they're not 0.). Those are a couple of ideas anyway...
I used a low voc xim primer a few weeks ago...acetone based...it smelled HORRIBLE! but it was "low voc".. find out if they're relating paint smells to voc's. Perhaps their lack of education is a barrier to a long term solution.. .good luck.

 

[NACE]

Make sure the rep has credentials that mirror his/her ability to evaluate and diagnose the issue. Not sure how you are responsible for a year old coating that is exhibiting something nobody has seen before that the owner specified a coating system with admitted structural issues that are over a year old and was going over a system that someone else had previously applied? Best of luck and keep us posted.

 

[PRC]

The source of the problem needs to be found first. Keep your rep involved through the whole process. Test the walls, take pictures, put a ladder up outside, look at the roof and siding. If it turns out to be the paint and not something else then look to SW to write a spec and take care of it. Don't agree to anything at this point.

 

[I paint paint]

Well if they want 0 voc's you're pretty limited. Big problems require big guns, not bb guns...there's a very good reason that we still have solvents in this industry...

I'm very interested in what the rep recommends. Is there a 0 VOC exterior product available? My first thought is Emerald. and loxon or gardz as a bonding primer (vot sure what the voc's are but I'm pretty sure they're not 0.). Those are a couple of ideas anyway…
I used a low voc xim primer a few weeks ago...acetone based...it smelled HORRIBLE! but it was "low voc"..find out if they're relating paint smells to voc's. Perhaps their lack of education is a barrier to a long term solution.. .good luck.

Smart! Great suggestion. If that's the case, you may want to sell this client on the idea that virtually ALL coatings have an odor, so you had better use the best product for the job. One that your rep says is specced exactly for the difficult substrate you are dealing with.

And in different scenarios, I will sometimes do the opposite with smell sensitive clients, and actually sell them on a zero VOC product. I never guarantee that there will be zero odor involved with the project (since smell is so subjective), but I can guarantee that I will use zero VOC coatings. The can will even have a ''green seal of approval'' stamped on the label!

 

[PACman]

I was told it was built in the late 70's, that said, your point is valid! It could be older, I didn't question it's age any further.

Frosting? I haven't heard that term before. I've seen chalking/frosting on exterior paint - but on interior walls - that's a new one, thus the post.

I take it PACman you're not a big fan of SW paints. Which oil primer do you recommend if it has to be extremely low to no VOC's? And, what is your preferred 0 VOC top coat paint? This would be classified as a 'commercial' building - and a non profit to top it off!

this primer-http://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/zinsser/primer-sealers/odorless-oil-base-stain-blocker

And I have sold way to much Promar 200 and sold way to many competing products to accept it as anything more than a high end apartment paint. Other the the fact that many painters can make a nice little mark-up by using it I really don't understand why it is ever used outside of said apartments and maybe new construction. That was always it's intended purpose. Way too many people use it in situations where it should not be used, simply because of the price. And the SW sales force encourages it's use regardless of the history of mediocrity it has. It's all about their profits. It's easier to sell a product at $20 then it is at $45, regardless of how well the more expensive product performs.

 

[Oden]

I'd bet the Oval Office is painted with pro mar 200
And the exterior is a-100
Lol

 

[speedyhotrod]

The Update

Well that went better than expected...thanks everyone for your input. SW Rep will send a sample to the lab for testing, next visit. I may still do my own pH test, because I think it's worth doing. Also, I've attached a few pics of the the first level walls.

The owner wasn't inferring or conferring blame on anyone, he knows it is a "40+ yr old building" and it has some issues. The Rep reiterated his position that as it is throughout each corridor on all walls, it is a 'substrate' issue rather than a coating issue. John is the most senior rep in the area (25+ yrs). We conferred prior to the meeting and agreed on two solutions.

To start, I agreed to repaint two TEST WALLS (10x8) using SW Emerald (one coat) to see if the dusting/chalking/frosting makes it through SW's most advance coating. Then we presented two options.

Option 1: The preferred approach (as suggested by many in this thread): Oil Prime + 2 Coats. As anticipated, the owner was very concerned as this is a senior's residence - many have breathing difficulties and want to avoid ANY harsh smells or VOC's.

Option 2: If Test Walls prove effective, two coats of Emerald on all walls. However, if Emerald fails, return to Option 1, suggest using air purifiers/filtration, open windows, doors, circulate as much as possible to minimize oil primer odors. Top with Emerald.

Option 1 - less cost effective, best approach
Option 2 - more cost effective, won't know until spring

SW REP will review Emerald paint cost for this job, seek to discount or donate some of the paint cost to the non profit.

Again, I do appreciate all the input and feedback.

 

[PACman]

Well that went better than expected...thanks everyone for your input. SW Rep will send a sample to the lab for testing, next visit. I may still do my own pH test, because I think it's worth doing. Also, I've attached a few pics of the the first level walls.

The owner wasn't inferring or conferring blame on anyone, he knows it is a "40+ yr old building" and it has some issues. The Rep reiterated his position that as it is throughout each corridor on all walls, it is a 'substrate' issue rather than a coating issue. John is the most senior rep in the area (25+ yrs). We conferred prior to the meeting and agreed on two solutions.

To start, I agreed to repaint two TEST WALLS (10x8) using SW Emerald (one coat) to see if the dusting/chalking/frosting makes it through SW's most advance coating. Then we presented two options.

Option 1: The preferred approach (as suggested by many in this thread): Oil Prime + 2 Coats. As anticipated, the owner was very concerned as this is a senior's residence - many have breathing difficulties and want to avoid ANY harsh smells or VOC's.

Option 2: If Test Walls prove effective, two coats of Emerald on all walls. However, if Emerald fails, return to Option 1, suggest using air purifiers/filtration, open windows, doors, circulate as much as possible to minimize oil primer odors. Top with Emerald.

Option 1 - less cost effective, best approach
Option 2 - more cost effective, won't know until spring

SW REP will review Emerald paint cost for this job, seek to discount or donate some of the paint cost to the non profit.

Again, I do appreciate all the input and feedback.

This is called ass covering at it's finest! Did you NOT put the same coating on all the walls? Typical response from a vested SW rep. Cover the companies ass as long as possible until the lab can find a way to weasel out of it. Trust me, they will find something. They are the best in the business at deflecting blame.

Is this "new" work? On a 40 something year old building? And as a substrate problem it never showed up with ANY OTHER paint that was used in 40+ years. And after having god knows how many coats of paint to seal in the substrate "problem"? I really don't think this is a "substrate issue". What did you or how did you clean the walls? Anything you haven't used before? That would be the only thing besides the paint itself that could cause this problem on a substrate with god knows how many previous coats of paint on it.

Watch YOUR a55! You are on about to get screwed I believe.

And to answer a question in your original post, yes I have seen it before.