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You didn't know your customer would be like this...

Sorry. This post was from long ago but I just read it...being just a p.o.s. newbie and all...

I've worked for crews - where we would show up the next day with post-it notes all over the walls where there 'weak' spots - and the customer dragged out their step ladder to and put these post it notes 9 feet up! What do you do with those type of customers? I've had house wives watch me right over my back as I was working inspecting my work!
So now you are in or near finished with this job and you see all the post it notes... What now? If you knew the customer was a real pain in the arse at the beginning, maybe you factored that in to the bid. But you did not know. So do you just say "yes ma'am" or do you point to the fine print in the contract and say "we'll take care of that" and charge extra?

Sooo excellent to read this thread. Thanks
 
I guess the point of being out of the bucket vs. in the bucket - is that homeowner I think have an edge in taking advantage of 'in the bucket' painters - they can skirt the original proposal and get free work.

A more professional company with workers and a strict hierarchy - I think a homeowner will be less apt to try and get something for nothing.
 
I guess the point of being out of the bucket vs. in the bucket - is that homeowner I think have an edge in taking advantage of 'in the bucket' painters - they can skirt the original proposal and get free work.

A more professional company with workers and a strict hierarchy - I think a homeowner will be less apt to try and get something for nothing.
The "in the bucket" painter likely did the estimate himself and knows the job inside out. I doubt he gets taken advantage of.

Do you really think that between in/out of bucket, one is necessarily a more professional company?
 
My point Scott - is that the one-man-band show when confronted with picky homeowners and post-it notes or the last minute 'oh - aren't you going to paint the other side of those two doorways?' It's those little things that homeowners feel they can approach the owner/operator and get away with it for free. A hierarchy type painting company has workers, foremen, etc. And when confronted like this by a homeowner - protocal is followed, change orders are signed, etc.

Come on you know the drill - you are on your side painting some baseboard - and wife comes up to you and says - can you do so and so? You don't pull out a change order do you? As owner/operators - we usually nickeled and dimed to death, unless we confront homeowners head on. I know on one home I was asked to do extra scraping which was an extra $700 worth of work on top of the estimate. I did it - never said anything. Finally the housewife asked me if I was going to scrape another section of home that I wasn't even contracted to touch - and that's when I confronted and told her no - it's not on the estimate, I've already eaten $700 in labor - enough is enough. Big crews - the homeowner has no idea who to poke and prod during the job - and unless they make a phone call to 'headquarters' most requests never get brought up.
 
Come on you know the drill - you are on your side painting some baseboard - and wife comes up to you and says - can you do so and so?

I would say sure, I'll add it to the scope of work and bill.

As owner/operators - we usually nickeled and dimed to death, unless we confront homeowners head on.

Theres no confrontation about it. When they ask you the question, you are assuming they want it for free. Then you make it a self fulfilling prophecy by...

I know on one home I was asked to do extra scraping which was an extra $700 worth of work on top of the estimate. I did it - never said anything. Finally the housewife asked me if I was going to scrape another section of home that I wasn't even contracted to touch - and that's when I confronted and told her no - it's not on the estimate, I've already eaten $700 in labor - enough is enough.

Its a communication problem. You don't need heirarchy and layers of management. You need to run your business, no matter its size. I'm not into free work. You arent either, so you shouldnt keep quiet and do it, then complain. Both you and the customer end up with a bad taste in your mouth, and thats not good for repeat business or word of mouth.

Big crews - the homeowner has no idea who to poke and prod during the job - and unless they make a phone call to 'headquarters' most requests never get brought up.

Its not a size issue at all.
 
Roy Heath Painting

That was a great story,I'm a Quality Painter- A One Man Company- I enjoy Painting- II'm very picky-I don't leave the job, until I'm satisfied -If I'm satisfied, I know the customer is t
 
actually it is WORSE with large crews...
if the home owner is as picky as described, they have no issue with directing the painters, asking them to do other things, etc etc.

I have actually found that the owner will NOT ask me, (owner and estimator) but will try and have the guys do a little extra from time to time, or point out things they dont like.

I can usually tell if this is going to happen before we start and warn the guys. I let the forman decied how far he is going to let the customer go, with extra items, is there an extra guy standing around? Could we take care of those two door faces in 1/2 and hour and still leave in the scheduled time frame. If the answer is yes, we dont mind doing anything extra. We bill on a timed basis, as long as we are within that timed basis we are on budget. At the same time, if we have the "extra" time to do these things and dont, yet still bill the customer for the time from the original bid we are over billing IMO. Untill the clock runs out, it is thier time...... We make sure that the customer understands that these are favors and extra items, but that we are happy to do them.
Happy customers are ALWAYS the best customers.

I also ask the home owner to please wait untill we are finished and I have walked the property with them before pointing out what they preceive to be as issues.
I explain that they felt comfotable enough with us to hire, please fell comfotable enough with us to do the job.....Its kinda funny how they laugh at that and relax right down.
 
I guess the first thing I should do is preclude this post with an explaination. I'm sure the blood pressure of many has risen just reading the title of this thread. This is not about big versus small. It about generating profit.

Doing high quality work is a given. I don't think anyone here will stand up and publicly declare that they do substandard painting. There may be plenty of guys that don't know how to paint but they don't (or shouldn't) own businesses. If a company is asking someone to trade their dollars for a paint job, their work has to be above and beyond what the average novice can perform. So again I say that craftsmanship should be a constant for everyone here. Please consider this though, being the best painter will not neccessarily make you a successful business owner.

I am not trying to preach to anyone, declare your business a failure or compare your goals to mine. I want to parlay that people will pay good money for a positive experience. It is this experience that makes a company successful and able to achieve longevity or growth.

Why Do You Own a Business?

There are many reasons a person will venture out on their own and hang a shingle that says "Painting". They tire of working for a disorganized company. They tire of making someone else rich. Maybe they even want to offer a level of quality that doesn't exist in their market. The bottom line of all of those is.. that person wants to generate more money than he can working for someone else.

Where The Plan Goes South

It's very easy to get single minded and let your ego blind you to your goals. If, "I'm going to offer the highest quality work" was your mantra and you stayed true to that goal, you have realized that quality work is expensive (for the business owner). You need to use high price paints, your prep takes a long time, you have to hire high end employees, the list goes on. If you haven't priced your service as the highest in the market, you have been taking it on the chin. You are probably slaving day in and day out doing estimates at night and strapping on your boots in the morning. Is this what you envisioned when you opened shop? Have your personal finances increased every year since you started this thing or are you in the same place you were five years ago?

But.. My customers get quality work and that's what counts the most.

Okay so.. your paint jobs rock. You do not need to advertise because you are in demand. People line up to get "quality at an affordable price." I don't know who to call but you are a candidate for a Nobel prize for altruism. You bust hump, give people awesome quality, charge a fair price and they love you for it. Meanwhile you pray your truck doesn't break down because your daughter needed braces and your central air just kicked the bucket. You can't afford to put your guys in uniform.. wait there are no guys, you cannot afford to hire someone that paints to your standards.

Are you trapped? Is "enslaved" even more accurate a word? What if you get hurt tommorrow? Will the business operate without you? Even if it stays afloat, are you building wealth? Hourly employees live paycheck to paycheck. Wasn't owning a business your ticket to get away from that stressful lifestyle?

So if not quality, what is it that makes one successful?

John is a decent painter. Most homeowners would call his work "good"
Alan is a craftsman. The cream of the crop when it comes to quality. John couldn't hold Alan's strap when it comes to cutting lines or turning a wall into a canvas.

Alan drives an 8 year old van with a magnet, works by himself and makes $38K a year. He has tried raising his prices but his customers complained. His referral network fell apart when he went up. He cannot close new work at the higher rate because his image does not parlay that he is a successful painter. Alan realized his workload was falling off so he panicked and went back to his old rates. Alan comes on the internet at night and types.. "marketing doesn't work. Selling doesn't work. People in my area won't pay that much for a paint job." Alan can look at photos that other guy's post and immediately see the flaws. Alan is a damn good painter. Alan's wife wishes he would go back to making union wages working for someone else.

John offers a good paint job. His customers are very satisfied with his work. John realized early on he wasn't the best painter in the world so he sought to make customers confident in hiring him. He has professionally designed business cards, brochures, and uses various advertising medium. When someone calls for an estimate, John is on the phone with them within the hour. He schedules appointments, he shows up on time. He speaks well and he knows the painting business. He instills confidence in the homeowner. John carries all the insurance, wears the logo'd gear and has brochures and color charts for the customer to view. John is not so busy that he cannot spend some time with a customer making sure they feel comforable before signing a contract. John isn't knee deep in mud doing texture every day so he can answer his cell phone and talk to a customer that has concerns. John's customers absolutely love the experience in dealing with his company. They feel that their needs are always first. The job is done cleanly, efficiently and in the customer's eyes, is flawless. They know why they paid John twice what that guy Alan wanted to charge them.

Alan thinks John's business is a scam.. smoke and mirrors. Alan's ego makes him believe this his superior quality is all the customer wants or needs. John just put his sixth truck on the road and hired an operations manager. That burns Alan's hide that John is able to con people into using his service.. after all, Alan is the superior painter.

There are many criteria that customers look for in a buying experience. Contrary to what you may have convinced yourself, quality is only one part of the equation and not neccessarily the most important. Ask yourself this. Does Starbucks have the greatest coffee in the world? It has to be right? They open new stores every single day and are the largest retailer of coffee in the world. I can't imagine how they do this since I find the $1.50 large coffee at Dunkin Donuts far superior in smoothness and taste. Starbucks provides a good customer experience.

Look directly into that mirror

Whenever you get the temptation to sit back and post "I don't need to advertise, my work is all referral" put yourself into check and look at what you are doing. Is it your ego that is successful or is it truly your business? Business is measured by profit. I don't want to create a wrong message. Success doesn't mean a hundred crews on the road because that comes with headaches that many don't want, no matter what the profit.

A one man show can be plenty profitable for some and have the right balance of working and having a life. If you are booked for the next four months without doing any type of advertising I am going to venture that you are underpricing your service. Actually, its not a guess, its a certainty. Try raising your prices. As little as a ten percent raise can put an extra ten thousand dollars in your pocket this year. Are you going to lose some bids? Of course, but who cares? So now you will be booked 45 days in advance instead of 120. Maybe you will finish working by two o'clock every day instead of by 5 or 6. A strange things also happens. You find yourself working less and making more money. Is that all that bad? If your work quality is all that you think it is, you'll still get the referrals and be making enough on your jobs to hire that union guy or other craftsmen like yourself to start taking away your burden.

You can only be your company for so long. Its always juggling swords of fire. Eventually, something happens and you can be left burned. Now is a good time to preclude making that mistake.

Ok sure thats all well and good. Most of us know this but the issue is not that simple.

Most people hire me even though they have never met me before not because i have been refered to them ( usually i haven't) but because i come across as a knowledgable , honest, and give a great price. Yeah i'm one of thos guys that does a great job for less money and yes i wish the business would go farther.
You talked about how much it cost to provide high quality workmanship.
Well it cost plenty to provide high quality service too. Advertising, vehicel graphics, printing, new whites, cleaning the job site and van, slowing down to stay clean. Cost plenty. And a week later you got a $6000.00 blow -and -go. That's all we ever did when I worked for contractors. You can pay for service , pay for quality, or you can pay for both or split the difference. But it takes a real class act to do it all for less. I won't say it can't be done
but it takes crafting a total process and not letting the customer or an employee taking you off your program.

People hire me bacause they sense that i'm an honest qualified person they can trust. If i trade quality for service. That won't be true anymore i i'll loose credablility.

I look for customers that know the difference. I try to judge the situatioon. If i'm in a nice neighborhood with a new building that just needs maintenance. I charge for service and quality. Thers minimal prep. needed on that building.

If it's some old building and the customer obviously is less well to do. I franky talk about service. I tell them i can do the prep but the job will take longer, with fewer people working on it, There might be a mess that gets cleaned up the next day. But the job i leave will last 10-12 yearsat least. some people go for it some don't

I think your telling people a truth but still the wrong message.
It's one of those sad human truths. Sure you can look people in the eye and tell them it's a great job. You might even belive yourself. Provide great service and let people equate that with quality workmanship. and you will make great money. But that does't make it right.

Ther's nothing wrong with emphasising service. It's apropriate for maintenance minimal prep work where there's plenty of expensive landscaping and other sensitive surfaces. But when a building need an overhaul because the last three painters, didn't primer, degloss, caulk, pressure wash adequatly, applied thin coats in the sun or made other deliberate mistakes and they want a grast price. Should I have to be considered a falilure because I put a full process before bells and whistles?
I don't think it right to insinuate complete prep work and substitute complete service insted which is probably cheaper and easier to do.
ITS UNFAIR TO A HARD AND HONEST WORKER!

I dare you to tell your next cuxtomer what prep work your not going to do. so you can look good while you don't do.
:jester:
 
I dare you to tell your next cuxtomer what prep work your not going to do. so you can look good while you don't do.
:jester:[/quote]

O.K. let's not miss the forest through the trees.

The piece by Ken was excellent!

I was just awarded a bid over 9 other companies, 4 of which were 10-15% lower.

Here is why I believe I was chosen:
1. I wore the all important suppliers coat with the logo on it.
2. I showed up to the min. on time for the two meetings I had with H.O. prior to getting approval.
3. Printed out a nice looking proposal and pinned it in a nice dark brown folder, of which I suggested that he could(and he did) store the competitors bids alongside mine.
4. I did not tell him "I am thee best painter that has stepped on your property." I told him the products I would be using and why, and in a nut shell, "I will do the project to your satisfaction, not to perfection."


Long story short he called me 2 days after our second meeting and said I quote " Can I be your customer?, because I would like to be." That was one of the best client calls I have ever had.

This older man put me thru the ringer in those two meetings, and frankly if I did not get the job, I would have been a little digusted having spent so much time talking with him. In the end service, not demonstration of perfection, won out, he asked for no references (the others gave many), he frankly did not really care about the products to be used because he said in the end I am the painter and he trusts I would not apply inferior products and risk a bad reputation.

Fireworks, gold rings and new vehicles are not what is being referenced in this thread. It is the fact that being pleasant, presentable, and prompt is well over half the battle in winning over a potential purchaser of your services. Sorry about all the P words, I got on a roll.....
 
I dare you to tell your next cuxtomer what prep work your not going to do. so you can look good while you don't do.
:jester:
O.K. let's not miss the forest through the trees.

The piece by Ken was excellent!

I was just awarded a bid over 9 other companies, 4 of which were 10-15% lower.

Here is why I believe I was chosen:
1. I wore the all important suppliers coat with the logo on it.
2. I showed up to the min. on time for the two meetings I had with H.O. prior to getting approval.
3. Printed out a nice looking proposal and pinned it in a nice dark brown folder, of which I suggested that he could(and he did) store the competitors bids alongside mine.
4. I did not tell him "I am thee best painter that has stepped on your property." I told him the products I would be using and why, and in a nut shell, "I will do the project to your satisfaction, not to perfection."


Long story short he called me 2 days after our second meeting and said I quote " Can I be your customer?, because I would like to be." That was one of the best client calls I have ever had.

This older man put me thru the ringer in those two meetings, and frankly if I did not get the job, I would have been a little digusted having spent so much time talking with him. In the end service, not demenstration of perfection, won out, he asked for no references (the others gave many), he frankly did not really care about the products to be used because he said in the end I am the painter and he trusts I would not apply inferior products and risk a bad reputation.

Fireworks, gold rings and new vehicles are not what is being referenced in this thread. It is the fact that being pleasant, presentable, and prompt is well over half the battle in winning over a potential purchaser of your services. Sorry about all the P words, I got on a roll.....[/quote]
hey, i liked the 3 P's, i will keep that in my head, thanks
 
Most excellent post , Ken ! You said many mouthfulls about the "business" of painting . While we go about our job, we tend to get carried away with doing the very best job for the HO, who, very possibly , would not notice a holiday the size of your truck ! Thanks for bringing this information to all .
 
Excluding industrial painting, where specifications and standards are crucial, painting in general is about perception. It’s about colors, textures, and fine lines. Most experienced painters can offer all of these things to their customers, due to the advancement of today’s products and equipment.

Standard preparation practices apply whether you’re painting mansions or ranch style homes. For example: pressure washing either home prior to painting, will likely ensure a longer lasting paint job, as will priming bare wood.

Ken’s not suggesting we bypass common practices in order to be successful. Instead, his emphasis is on the contractor’s presentation. It is already established by the customer that you are a professional if you have your own business, so there should be no need to share with them how wonderful you are, and how no other painter can match your quality. To them, a clean truck, logo, uniform, and good communication skills, is perceived as established, which equates to trust.

It’s those so called “Contractors” out there who are nothing more then glorified “Side Jobbers” who want to fall on their rolling polls as the Martyrs to painting perfection and standards.


The OP should be posted every month as a reminder.
 
I must admit that when I looked at the title of this post I started seeing red and I could'nt wait to get to my keyboard to post myt response!
But after reading this article I can understand the thinking a little better.
Good post.
 
Great post, Ken. This rings true to me as well:

Ken’s not suggesting we bypass common practices in order to be successful. Instead, his emphasis is on the contractor’s presentation. It is already established by the customer that you are a professional if you have your own business, so there should be no need to share with them how wonderful you are, and how no other painter can match your quality. To them, a clean truck, logo, uniform, and good communication skills, is perceived as established, which equates to trust.
 
Man, this article shakes me up. Perfection is part of who I am. For instance, I'll begin a restoration job on a very old home. I tell myself that I will not be as crazy with perfectionism this time. I begin on a window and as I make my way around the house I get more and more detailed in my work. I end up going back to the first window and doing it over and over again. I feel good about the work, but frustrated by the time it takes me. I make my guys nuts by what I demand from them. I make myself crazed as well.
Thanks for this article. I will consider this. The customer usually does not have the eye to differentiate between a 7 or a 10 job. In my book, they are just as durable. I want to give myself a break here.
 
try painting houses for the older gents who have been in the trades for like 35 years and just dont have it in them or just wanna pay someone for the job do you think they give a crap about the presentation they want quality quality quality and they know exactly how long the job will take lol.

some people who need the job done dont care about the starbucks experience they just want a real quality roasted bean.

when someone tells you omg you have to try this coffee its the best coffee ever you know this person doesnt work for this coffee maker they just found this coffee to be the best and you never even heard of it your more likely to go out and try the coffee now. even if you saw an advertisement for it before hand would you give it a second thought how many coffee makers are out there?

i truely believe the only way to get that business going is by doing the best for a great price going above and beyond of course its always slow at first but i know this one guy hes young like 26 he started off slow but now his business is booming all word of mouth he does top notch work like i mean big bucks and no construction production crap either all private work all year round and gratz to him.

your work speaks for itself it depends what kind of painter you are

crackhead
hack
decent
good
awsome
godly

if you build they will come lol
 
I am actually in awe. In awe of how much service and presentation/price seems to be what sells. Not "the best product out there" like I thought. I know that is important to some, but seems to be the case that money talks.. that is the true reality out there.
 
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