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I've got a mixed bag, I have professional painters that tell me you can't touch up as easily, note my words, as easily not at all with anything other than flat and they recommend repainting. I have others that are telling me you can with anything other than flat in this thread. If you understand chemistry and learn the science behind it you'll know its more of the former.
First off, since you have joined a forum that is only for professional painters, I am required to assume that you are a professional painter, yourself, and that you have joined this forum stating as such as a requirement for admission to.

That having been said, would you recommend flat paint TO YOUR CLIENTS for a ceiling in a kitchen where food is fried and grease commonly is deposited on the ceilings and walls where it is routinely cleaned up several times a year?

You are a professional painter, no?

futtyos
 

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Flat may be preferred on some surfaces for certain situations, but none of which is how well it touches up years down the road , (at least not from the perspective of a Professional Painter). If you'd like to retitle the name of this thread, "I think flat paints are the best...here's why", I will help you do that. But you phrased the title as a question, and each time you've received feedback that wasn't inline with your way of thinking, you've retaliated without showing the least bit of respect for anyone. The rest of us ARE professional painters. This is a community. We bounce ideas off one another constructively and respectfully. Please consider this "friendly" advice, and know that folks who can't play nice with others will have to find another playground.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
The man's all offense!

Side note - Cc440 eggshell touched up pretty well this afternoon.

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Well when people spew out bullshit about flat paint I will be on offense like not being able to get washed at all as if a single water droplet would ruin the whole thing. That's great, it still won't touch up as good as flat ive stated several times. IMO, I personally think most furniture blends in well with flat paint and doesn't look good with anything other than flat, but that's my own taste. I personally would never touch up on eggshell in darker shades. If I had a choice between touching up on flat or eggshell I would 100% choose flat.
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
Flat may be preferred on some surfaces for certain situations, but none of which is how well it touches up years down the road , (at least not from the perspective of a Professional Painter). If you'd like to retitle the name of this thread, "I think flat paints are the best...here's why", I will help you do that. But you phrased the title as a question, and each time you've received feedback that wasn't inline with your way of thinking, you've retaliated without showing the least bit of respect for anyone. The rest of us ARE professional painters. This is a community. We bounce ideas off one another constructively and respectfully. Please consider this "friendly" advice, and know that folks who can't play nice with others will have to find another playground.
Arguments will happen and differing opinions will create tension. This is common amongst these kind of topics. You should know that with these types of discussions there are a variety of different types of brands, applications, scenarios and issues so that is most likely to be brought up. I'm presenting such cases on here to prove that one experience doesn't dictate the others and providing false information or playing out information that isn't necessarily always true will make me combat it in a manner so that it makes more sense and thinking rationally using common sense and science. If you don't understand how certain things work then you won't thrive in this business. I've said multiple times that anything other than flat paint is harder to touch up on to achieve a better blend. It is foolish and ignorant to not read carefully my words and I've specifically pointed out that I said not easily. Using common sense and logic, being in this business you should know different people use different brands and different types if paint. To say touch up easily is best non-flat with every product out there is not using logic. You research and understand how it works with different brands if you want to present a thorough argument.
 

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Well when people spew out bullshit about flat paint I will be on offense like not being able to get washed at all as if a single water droplet would ruin the whole thing. That's great, it still won't touch up as good as flat ive stated several times. IMO, I personally think most furniture blends in well with flat paint and doesn't look good with anything other than flat, but that's my own taste. I personally would never touch up on eggshell in darker shades. If I had a choice between touching up on flat or eggshell I would 100% choose flat.
I love your passion for flat paint brother.
Are you a flat paint salesman by any chance?

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Well when people spew out bullshit about flat paint I will be on offense like not being able to get washed at all as if a single water droplet would ruin the whole thing. That's great, it still won't touch up as good as flat ive stated several times. IMO, I personally think most furniture blends in well with flat paint and doesn't look good with anything other than flat, but that's my own taste. I personally would never touch up on eggshell in darker shades. If I had a choice between touching up on flat or eggshell I would 100% choose flat.
I don't care what you think. You know a whole lot less than you think you do.
 

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Arguments will happen and differing opinions will create tension. This is common amongst these kind of topics. You should know that with these types of discussions there are a variety of different types of brands, applications, scenarios and issues so that is most likely to be brought up. I'm presenting such cases on here to prove that one experience doesn't dictate the others and providing false information or playing out information that isn't necessarily always true will make me combat it in a manner so that it makes more sense and thinking rationally using common sense and science. If you don't understand how certain things work then you won't thrive in this business. I've said multiple times that anything other than flat paint is harder to touch up on to achieve a better blend. It is foolish and ignorant to not read carefully my words and I've specifically pointed out that I said not easily. Using common sense and logic, being in this business you should know different people use different brands and different types if paint. To say touch up easily is best non-flat with every product out there is not using logic. You research and understand how it works with different brands if you want to present a thorough argument.
I don't care what you think. You know a whole lot less than you think you do. Go troll another board. Or better yet. Just use flats and stop asking for others' opinions since you obviously don't want to hear them.
 

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I think my favorite finish overall is matte and not dead flat. Dead flat looks great as soon as you're done to pull plastic off, but even good dead flats eventually feel chalky/etc. I'm big on how paints feel, not just look, so the chalky feel of dead flats always isn't nice to me. On a ceiling obviously you want dead flat, but ideally nobody touches the ceiling.

Other than that, I always try to steer clients towards a matte or sometimes a "washable flat" (ie, Cashmere Flat is 2-5 sheen like Regal Matte in theory according to spec sheets) if their wall conditions are mediocre and I can convince them on it. Other than that, I think even satins or semis can look awesome on a wall as long as it's a very flat wall without a lot of blemishes.

112028

This looks absolutely awesome sheen-wise, but if you were to apply something with that sort of sheen on your average 70s construction house with a bunch of nailpops, seams, patch repairs, etc, it would look awful.

112029

I don't want to pick on that DIY blogger, but that's red Behr semi-gloss on a wall and it looks pretty... unlike above. But that wall in matte/washable flat would look OK.

112030

A wall in Fine Paints of Europe gloss presumably skimmed to the maximum possible smoothness known to man and buffed/etc.

I've not kept track of the other pages going on in this thread, but imo, "washable flat" always ends up being a matte anyway, so for all intents and purposes we'll say matte. I think matte is best for the average lower budget American homeowner without skimcoated perfect walls, but higher sheens can look great if your walls are flat and prep and application is on point. I don't think dead flats should be used on walls, though, unless it's a scenario where wall conditions are awful and it always gets painted after every renter, and even then, springing for a matte or low sheen eggshell could be better longterm to avoid repainting as often. I guess you could use dead flat to help sell a house, too, as then you'd hide your wall imperfections with dead flat paint and longevity wouldn't be a concern.
 

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Right, but what situation and circumstances would a customer be in? Are they in situations in which grease is a problem?does the customer like shine or no shine at all? Does a customer want a finish that shows off the color more? Does the customer want to see more of a glow? There's many factors to consider. If I were to have a customer that wanted to do a finish that wasn't flat I would tell them that they'll see what happens In a few years with constant washing and scrubbing because for touching up flat paint touches up better than any other sheen if they were to save money. Answer these questions for me. 1. What is the proper way to clean and wash walls? 2. In order to avoid being stupid any further, if you were to wash flat paint would the whole entire coat come off and you would be left with bare walls or would paint still be on there? 3. If you were to see imperfections on walls what do you think would hide them the best?
Hey DIYer. To actually answer your question despite being hostile and hating us and not even being on the correct forum for DIYs (I lurked here before I turned pro, so I do understand it...) It's a big "it depends." Paint sheens aren't really any more expensive. You could get Benjamin Moore Superhide Eggshell for 3x cheaper than Aura flat, for example. Something like low 20s per gallon vs 70-80 per gallon. Same with SW products, Masterhide is $17 a gallon vs Duration being about $50. I can get Masterhide semi-gloss for say, $19 a gallon. So basically, while you're paying $1-5 more per gallon for a certain sheen, cost is not the factor in gloss levels, there is no conspiracy for paint companies to make more money selling you sheened paint vs not.

For touching up, most paints of any sheen and type will touch up relatively OK in the first couple of days or a week or so out of the same gallon. That said, touching up is NEVER ideal because you create different paint thicknesses on the wall and it will often even if done right will "flash" and show where you touched up at certain light angles. Flat minimizes flashing, but can't totally eliminate it. The other thing too that happens over a lot of years is any paint will fade in color to some degree due to UV, and touching up after years and years could lead to different colors even if it's the same can.

For washability, it depends on the paint and surface prep, and how "dead flat" it is. Generally dead flats are not washable, and are better for ceilings, as they have no sheen at all. Cheap flats can be better on ceilings compared to higher end "flats" as higher end flats are designed to be washable generally, but are no longer truly flat but more along the lines of matte, as in, a very minor amount of sheen. Creating a super durable true matte/very flat paint is like the holy grail of paint companies, as then you get all the advantages with no downsides, and no chalky/dusty feeling. Generally a cheap flat will wash off like chalk on a wall, but it really depends. In a house I used BM Ultra Spec dead flat in, it seemed more durable on walls already painted flat, but on the few walls with some semi-gloss on them I painted flat it would just wash away instantly. This is because of the semi-gloss not providing a mechanical bond for the flat paint to stick. There's so many variables both in paint and in prep you can't answer that question with any degree of certainty.

Anyway, I think this is more answers than you "deserve" after disrespecting us all here, but nonetheless it is answered. I would pick a paint based on durability and how it actually looks, not just ease of touching up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
I think my favorite finish overall is matte and not dead flat. Dead flat looks great as soon as you're done to pull plastic off, but even good dead flats eventually feel chalky/etc. I'm big on how paints feel, not just look, so the chalky feel of dead flats always isn't nice to me. On a ceiling obviously you want dead flat, but ideally nobody touches the ceiling.

Other than that, I always try to steer clients towards a matte or sometimes a "washable flat" (ie, Cashmere Flat is 2-5 sheen like Regal Matte in theory according to spec sheets) if their wall conditions are mediocre and I can convince them on it. Other than that, I think even satins or semis can look awesome on a wall as long as it's a very flat wall without a lot of blemishes.

View attachment 112028
This looks absolutely awesome sheen-wise, but if you were to apply something with that sort of sheen on your average 70s construction house with a bunch of nailpops, seams, patch repairs, etc, it would look awful.

View attachment 112029
I don't want to pick on that DIY blogger, but that's red Behr semi-gloss on a wall and it looks pretty... unlike above. But that wall in matte/washable flat would look OK.

View attachment 112030
A wall in Fine Paints of Europe gloss presumably skimmed to the maximum possible smoothness known to man and buffed/etc.

I've not kept track of the other pages going on in this thread, but imo, "washable flat" always ends up being a matte anyway, so for all intents and purposes we'll say matte. I think matte is best for the average lower budget American homeowner without skimcoated perfect walls, but higher sheens can look great if your walls are flat and prep and application is on point. I don't think dead flats should be used on walls, though, unless it's a scenario where wall conditions are awful and it always gets painted after every renter, and even then, springing for a matte or low sheen eggshell could be better longterm to avoid repainting as often. I guess you could use dead flat to help sell a house, too, as then you'd hide your wall imperfections with dead flat paint and longevity wouldn't be a concern.
Well why do you think rentals use flat to begin with
I love your passion for flat paint brother.
Are you a flat paint salesman by any chance?

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I'm not a salesman,but I look at it this way. Let's say a customer or any person we're to tell me that their walls have become a little damaged or otherwise not perfect I would recommend them flat as repairs to walls wouldn't aren't as easily to hide. Now if I were to ask them how often they wash their walls, I wouldn't recommend it, but I would tell them that at some point washing and touching up were to go together. So for washing I would say short term flat is harder, but for long term it wouldn't matter either way because you would have to repaint anyway to make it loo fresh again. Scrubbing wears down the finish. But to obtain a more a touch up that blends a better I would tell a person that flat does touch up the best. Every money you save is more money in your pocket. As a professional you have to look at it from a customer perspective. Do you want to have your customers save money or do you want to make more money yourself?

I would tell a customer or person that if they want to save the most money they could paint flat, but to follow proper washing techniques and if need be to keep a can of paint for when they need to fix it. I would tell them that any wall does not need to be washed corner to corner and it doesn't matter what finish they choose as paint over time degrades on walls anyway. If the customer wanted to spot repair their wall, I would tell them choose flat.
 

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Well why do you think rentals use flat to begin with
I'm not a salesman,but I look at it this way. Let's say a customer or any person we're to tell me that their walls have become a little damaged or otherwise not perfect I would recommend them flat as repairs to walls wouldn't aren't as easily to hide. Now if I were to ask them how often they wash their walls, I wouldn't recommend it, but I would tell them that at some point washing and touching up were to go together. So for washing I would say short term flat is harder, but for long term it wouldn't matter either way because you would have to repaint anyway to make it loo fresh again. Scrubbing wears down the finish. But to obtain a more a touch up that blends a better I would tell a person that flat does touch up the best. Every money you save is more money in your pocket. As a professional you have to look at it from a customer perspective. Do you want to have your customers save money or do you want to make more money yourself?

I would tell a customer or person that if they want to save the most money they could paint flat, but to follow proper washing techniques and if need be to keep a can of paint for when they need to fix it. I would tell them that any wall does not need to be washed corner to corner and it doesn't matter what finish they choose as paint over time degrades on walls anyway. If the customer wanted to spot repair their wall, I would tell them choose flat.
Most rentals around here are going to sheened paints to last longer. The super duper low end Section 8 ones tend to use cheap semis, the rest tend to use something like PM200 low sheen eggshell. Last couple of rentals I did for a landlord he's actually switched to Regal Matte, to paint less between tenants ideally. The Section 8 ones want cheap semis just to wash between tenants and not paint. I've only done one rental in a flat everywhere. In the end they're still paying to fully repaint when tenants leave, so the whole touchup idea was kinda useless, but the flat did hide imperfections well, but most renters aren't looking for Level 5 walls.

For the most EXTREME use scenario, think of it this way. Most institutional paints for schools, prisons, youth facilities, warehouses, factories, etc, tend to be semi-gloss or satin. My SW rep bragged to me that Solo Semi-gloss was bought the most by our state's prisons to use, as it was that durable and tough. None of those places have time or energy to have everyone be touching up walls, either something gets painted or it doesn't.

For your use case scenario as someone who loves touching up walls, fine, go flat, but for the most part the entire industry is moving away from that idea now, both paint companies, landlords, and institutions. About the only market left for dead flat on walls is houses about to be sold wanting to cover up wall imperfections.
 

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I do! I decided I love it! Especially after this thread, even more!
I’ve slowly switched out to flats from a low sheen in my personal home. Tired of the textured look of my older home, flats hide it well. Even suggest it more to my clients too. Seems to be gaining popularity as well due to the modern look being desired out here in so cal.
Happy bickering people


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I think my favorite finish overall is matte and not dead flat. Dead flat looks great as soon as you're done to pull plastic off, but even good dead flats eventually feel chalky/etc. I'm big on how paints feel, not just look, so the chalky feel of dead flats always isn't nice to me. On a ceiling obviously you want dead flat, but ideally nobody touches the ceiling.

Other than that, I always try to steer clients towards a matte or sometimes a "washable flat" (ie, Cashmere Flat is 2-5 sheen like Regal Matte in theory according to spec sheets) if their wall conditions are mediocre and I can convince them on it. Other than that, I think even satins or semis can look awesome on a wall as long as it's a very flat wall without a lot of blemishes.


This looks absolutely awesome sheen-wise, but if you were to apply something with that sort of sheen on your average 70s construction house with a bunch of nailpops, seams, patch repairs, etc, it would look awful.


I don't want to pick on that DIY blogger, but that's red Behr semi-gloss on a wall and it looks pretty... unlike above. But that wall in matte/washable flat would look OK.


A wall in Fine Paints of Europe gloss presumably skimmed to the maximum possible smoothness known to man and buffed/etc.

I've not kept track of the other pages going on in this thread, but imo, "washable flat" always ends up being a matte anyway, so for all intents and purposes we'll say matte. I think matte is best for the average lower budget American homeowner without skimcoated perfect walls, but higher sheens can look great if your walls are flat and prep and application is on point. I don't think dead flats should be used on walls, though, unless it's a scenario where wall conditions are awful and it always gets painted after every renter, and even then, springing for a matte or low sheen eggshell could be better longterm to avoid repainting as often. I guess you could use dead flat to help sell a house, too, as then you'd hide your wall imperfections with dead flat paint and longevity wouldn't be a concern.
FYI your looking at roughly100 hours labor to get a wall to a sufficient level for FPE hollandlac.
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
Most rentals around here are going to sheened paints to last longer. The super duper low end Section 8 ones tend to use cheap semis, the rest tend to use something like PM200 low sheen eggshell. Last couple of rentals I did for a landlord he's actually switched to Regal Matte, to paint less between tenants ideally. The Section 8 ones want cheap semis just to wash between tenants and not paint. I've only done one rental in a flat everywhere. In the end they're still paying to fully repaint when tenants leave, so the whole touchup idea was kinda useless, but the flat did hide imperfections well, but most renters aren't looking for Level 5 walls.

For the most EXTREME use scenario, think of it this way. Most institutional paints for schools, prisons, youth facilities, warehouses, factories, etc, tend to be semi-gloss or satin. My SW rep bragged to me that Solo Semi-gloss was bought the most by our state's prisons to use, as it was that durable and tough. None of those places have time or energy to have everyone be touching up walls, either something gets painted or it doesn't.

For your use case scenario as someone who loves touching up walls, fine, go flat, but for the most part the entire industry is moving away from that idea now, both paint companies, landlords, and institutions. About the only market left for dead flat on walls is houses about to be sold wanting to cover up wall imperfections.
And why do you think they choose to use flat to cover up imperfections? It's harder to remove those and paint a different sheen and just paint flat. By getting rid of that you make them a bit more visible again. Institutions and other places that's fine to use that finish that makes sense as it's higher traffic. To say people are moving away from flat finish is ignorant. Why would they still market it? As far as I know there are still people that buy it and prefer it. I can't spot any imperfections on a flat painted wall vs one that isn't. There is a reason why flat is on houses being sold. It adds more value to it. Imagine walking into a house and seeing all this **** on the walls
 

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Discussion Starter · #58 ·
Hey DIYer. To actually answer your question despite being hostile and hating us and not even being on the correct forum for DIYs (I lurked here before I turned pro, so I do understand it...) It's a big "it depends." Paint sheens aren't really any more expensive. You could get Benjamin Moore Superhide Eggshell for 3x cheaper than Aura flat, for example. Something like low 20s per gallon vs 70-80 per gallon. Same with SW products, Masterhide is $17 a gallon vs Duration being about $50. I can get Masterhide semi-gloss for say, $19 a gallon. So basically, while you're paying $1-5 more per gallon for a certain sheen, cost is not the factor in gloss levels, there is no conspiracy for paint companies to make more money selling you sheened paint vs not.

For touching up, most paints of any sheen and type will touch up relatively OK in the first couple of days or a week or so out of the same gallon. That said, touching up is NEVER ideal because you create different paint thicknesses on the wall and it will often even if done right will "flash" and show where you touched up at certain light angles. Flat minimizes flashing, but can't totally eliminate it. The other thing too that happens over a lot of years is any paint will fade in color to some degree due to UV, and touching up after years and years could lead to different colors even if it's the same can.

For washability, it depends on the paint and surface prep, and how "dead flat" it is. Generally dead flats are not washable, and are better for ceilings, as they have no sheen at all. Cheap flats can be better on ceilings compared to higher end "flats" as higher end flats are designed to be washable generally, but are no longer truly flat but more along the lines of matte, as in, a very minor amount of sheen. Creating a super durable true matte/very flat paint is like the holy grail of paint companies, as then you get all the advantages with no downsides, and no chalky/dusty feeling. Generally a cheap flat will wash off like chalk on a wall, but it really depends. In a house I used BM Ultra Spec dead flat in, it seemed more durable on walls already painted flat, but on the few walls with some semi-gloss on them I painted flat it would just wash away instantly. This is because of the semi-gloss not providing a mechanical bond for the flat paint to stick. There's so many variables both in paint and in prep you can't answer that question with any degree of certainty.

Anyway, I think this is more answers than you "deserve" after disrespecting us all here, but nonetheless it is answered. I would pick a paint based on durability and how it actually looks, not just ease of touching up.
Wouldn't you say flat looks good as it hides imperfections and offers smoothness? How often do you need to wash or clean walls that much that flat is completely useless? All of you flat haters basically make that the basis of your argument without actually putting logic into it. Tell me, if flat paint wasn't washable then it wouldn't exist. Clearly you would know that there's a difference between washable and scrubbable. Flat is the former not the latter. We aren't living in the 1980s anymore. Flat paint has advanced.
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 · (Edited)
, but on the few walls with some semi-gloss on them I painted flat it would just wash away instantly. This is because of the semi-gloss not providing a mechanical bond for the flat paint to stick.
[/QUOTE]

Any professional knows that you can't paint flat over semi-gloss without abrading. I did flat over semi-gloss by abrading via sanding and it worked completely fine. If I was your customer and you did that, I would literally ask for a refund because you didn't do it properly.
 
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