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dry time

52K views 110 replies 25 participants last post by  PACman  
#1 ·
i'm curious. I had a decorina/"expert painter" throw a fit yesterday because the paint i sold her had a 4 hour dry to recoat time on the label. She said she has never used a paint that had a 4 hour recoat time i her life. (she apparently uses a "bunch" of Benjamin Moore yet she didn't have any idea what product she used. She had never heard of Aura!). My question is, since i don't have all the paints available in my hillbilly paint lab, what are the listed dry to recoat times of some of the paint you are using? Is 2-4 hours uncommon or something? I'm talking about matte/eggshell.

AND she was complaining about this while she was using the product during a 100% humidity, 64 degree f day. I really don't think a four hour recoat time would be all that unusual in these conditions do you?
 
#8 ·
Most latex paints are 3-4 hr recoat. (Theoretically ). Except as coco says the BM lines are 1 hr. Which is nice for a quick turnover. I'm still on the search for a good exterior product with a 1 hr recoat for exterior doors! Haven't found that yet.
I need to do a metal one soon. Take off hinges, prep, spray and re hang in 1 day..Thoughts

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#10 ·
PPG Breakthrough is 2 hour and is sort of meant mostly for metal.

Besides the aforementioned BM all having shorter recoat times (which make me hate using it, I can get a lot of flashing issues on some substrates...) BM Ben says 2-3, I think the satin and semi sheens of Regal are that, too.

A lot of Behr and Glidden stuff is 2 or 3 hours.

Most people ignore the dry time specs totally and just put their hand on it and go "looks dry to me!" and recoat it. Oh well.
 
#12 ·
Somebody on here a few years ago said they set up a 240V construction heater to make the paint dry faster. All residential repaints. He must have been making that up. What are ya gonna do when you're painting a bedroom upstairs? String a 100' 240V extension cord through the house and ask the homeowner to pull out their stove so you can hook it up?


I can't remember if I called him out on whether that was a lie or not, but I do remember saying that was one of the worst ideas I'd ever heard.
 
#13 ·
i guess i'm just trying to figure out why she was in such an uproar over dry time. Maybe she was worried about making her mani/pedi appointment.
 
#17 ·
Ummm in those conditions how can she expect ANY paint to have a re-coat time under 4hrs?!

Depends on which BM product she’s used to (sounds like none of them? Hah) The Aura Matte is 1hr re-coat but only @ 50% humidity or less. Advance Matte is 16 (4 to touch I believe) but its also like 48% solids n a hybrid.

Most SW are 4hr+...ProMar is 4hr recoat, emerald matte is 4hr, Duration Matte & Flat are 4hr.....
 
#18 ·
I think you have to have pretty favorable conditions to achieve the 1hr BM recoat times. Beyond the temp and humidity, the porosity of the surface has a big effect on the dry times as well.

The dry times on the can are based on applying the product in a lab under certain conditions.


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#20 ·
Because there are so many opportunities for paint film problems to occur due to operator application error and unfavorable environmental conditions, I've made it a point to at least follow recommended recoat times. It's a simple approach that doesn't allow haste to circumvent and dictate the outcome.


And the science accurately represents why paint films should complete the coalescing process.
 
#27 ·
Get by by the seat of your pants? Come on. We're talking about walls here. Its not rocket surgery. I maintain that recoat times are GUIDELINES. Thats why we dont hear about paint failures on walls due to recoating too quick, which I am willing to bet at least HALF the interior walls in the entire country were recoated too soon. waiting the correct time under normal conditions ensures 100% there wont be a failure, as opposed to the 99.99% if you recoat sooner. Call me crazy, but I like those odds.

I guess Im just not big on following rules unless theres a legitimate reason not too. I dont always drive with my hands on 10 and 2, I dont chew my food 32 times per bite, and I will recoat before the time. Im a loner Dotty.... A rebel.
 
#28 ·
How many jobs do you come back to and see years later? Just because you don't know something failed doesn't mean it didn't happen. A failure isn't always outright, but how many jobs have you been on where paint on the wall felt sticky or you could fingernail it off years later? It's usually not crappy paint, it's people not following dry times. (Though not cleaning/priming it is another big cause, usually they go hand in hand...) Of course people will blame the paint, but rarely it's the paint. Never mind the houses that permanently smell like paint. Of your 50% figure, probably a quarter of all houses have garbage like this going on, when it doesn't need to happen.

I think for profit, you can still follow dry times and be profitable. It just requires different job planning. You can pay the extra money for the products with shorter recoat times (BM) and deal with the possible drawbacks of them, for one. Or, if you're doing a whole house, you can start on first coats in other rooms while you're waiting for the room you did to dry. If you're doing one bedroom spending the money for a Regal or similar probably is ideal so you can be in and out.

I guess it comes down to how you think of the customer. "Do unto others..." and all. I personally would not want a contractor to do that in my own house, knowing the risks involved with it.

"Everyone else does this dumb thing, so I'll do it too" isn't a good excuse. In other trades this happens with a lot more disastrous results than paint peeling. For example, in tile, the TCNA (Tile Council of North America) basically found 90% of tiled showers were built wrong in some way. A proper tile job should be able to last without leaks, loose tiles, etc, for 50 years. That industry organization publishes a handbook that is used in lawsuits if a failure happens. Painting, luckily or unluckily is sort of an industry that kind of encourages or even intentionally tries to create failures to keep work going. They figure people will always buy paint. The tile industry meanwhile has competition with vinyl, cultured marble, etc, that people could buy instead of tile, so they proactively try much more than painting to educate people and prevent failures and come up with universal standards and methods and guidelines which really painting doesn't have. My problem with the paint industry is they're happy with the status quo of failure being basically the rule rather than the exception, and though the industry is growing, there are things like vinyl siding vs paint that have come up as competition to the industry.
 
#29 ·
I've been back to many (over 50%) of my jobs, as the majority of my customers were repeat business. Never once have I seen failure due to recoating before the prescribed dry time. And I have had some jobs where I had to wait longer to recoat than the prescribed time due to ambient conditions. PA is the humidity capitol of the world. It all comes down to common sense.

It certainly doesn't hurt to follow the recommendations, but if common sense and experience dictate otherwise....Those specs are written by people in a lab with little to no field experience. And they are drawn up to cover their a55.

Nor have I ever rolled a wall in a W pattern a day in my life . Still I managed to make it through 40+ years "by the seat of my pants". Just lucky I guess, because the odds were clearly not in my favor. I didn't follow the label directions.
 
#37 ·
Many times the written specifications and application procedures on products’ TDS’s in the coatings industry are “incorrect”, requiring modification by the professional applicator based on experience and knowledge. One that comes to mind was a 2-part wood bleach I used. The TDS stated that it is self-neutralizing..since when do residual lye salts magically self-neutralize? They don’t. I was on a project where my company was finishing the first floor oak flooring, another company finishing the 2nd floor. The applicators on the 2nd floor didn’t neutralize because the TDS stated the product was self neutralizing...we neutralized...the client, architect, and builder were all concerned with the yellowing and discoloration on the 2nd floor oak due to the reactivation of the finish-eating residual lye salts during the finishing process.

Three weeks ago I was applying sealer to mahogany, the TDS stating a theoretical coverage rate of 250-400 sq ft/gal, the TDS stating not to deviate from the stated coverage rates. I knew the rates were incorrect based on experience and general finish knowledge. After calculating the theoretical coverage rates myself, knowing both the wet/dry film thickness and solid content, the correct coverage I came up with was 550 sq ft/gal..after locating an older TDS for the same product, all other things being equal, the stated theoretical coverage rates were 500-550 sq ft/gal. Had I followed the manufacturer’s instructions, I’d potentially be facing a costly strip/refinish due to the pore fill not matching the approved sample.

I sat in on an arbitration for an HO client of mine, the client seeking $350K in damages for catastrophic finish failure on a millwork package finished by others. I had provided neutral expert witness testimony during the arbitration, knowing that a critical step was missed during the application, the step not stated on the TDS. During the discovery process, I spoke to the importer/distributor, the distributor acknowledging the error/omittance on the TDS, telling me that there was an appended piece of literature being provided with any future shipments addressing the issue, with modified procedures.

Another one that comes to mind was the use of a sealer on limestone flooring, the applicators applying it according to spec. I pulled the contractor aside, indicating that the application was incorrect, the application needing to be drastically modified from the specified procedure and coverage rates stated on the TDS...I was told to mind my own business. I returned to the site the following morning, the finish being gummy like stepping on flypaper. I told the contractor that it could be easily remedied, but had to be done right then and there, requesting the opportunity to correct it, the correction being a simple fix...the sealing of the stone flooring not being my contract or responsibility. I was told to mind my own business, that the flooring was getting 2 more coats according to the TDS. After arguing with the contractor until I was blue in the face, two coats later, the floor couldn’t even be walked on, it was like stepping on chewing gum. The HO came out to the project and let out a shriek when she saw the floor. The floor needed to be stripped by a stone restoration company, costing upwards $10K for the removal of the finish. I was picking the brain of the restoration expert discussing the necessary deviation from the spec in order to achieve the desired result, the expert concurring with my methodology having used the product regularly in the modified fashion, the same sealer being applied against the manufacturer’s specification on the 2nd go, everything looking and performing as it should.

Another deviation example was experienced a few months ago, a wood finishing product not performing as expected, having to drastically modify the procedure against the manufacturer’s TDS. I pulled out my electronic pH tester as well as some litmus paper, suspecting the pH on the product was drastically off from the stated pH on the SDS. Sure enough it was off by 3. I contacted the manufacturer’s chemist, sending him pics of the pH tests, the manufacturer recalling all of the product and modifying the manufacturing process as a result. It turned out the chemist wasn’t a chemist...

Do you solely rely on manufacturers’ specifications? I don’t...
 
#38 · (Edited)
Following manufacturer’s specs can also save your A$$....

My first 2 years in business back in the 80’s I experienced what was thought to be catastrophic finish failure on upwards $600K (in 1980’s dollars) of maple cabinetry which was shop finished by myself over the course of 2 years, all with NC lacquer, and all constructed out 1/32” veneers. Every cabinet I finished over a 2-year period failed. Scary? You bet it was. The failure was ultimately determined to be the result of stresses in rotary cut veneers/lather checking, the finishes shattering along the stress lines. I was not held accountable by the design/build firm, having followed the finish manufacturer’s instructions on the TDS. Had I not applied the finishes to spec, I likely would have shared in the liability. Taunton Press’s Fine Woodworking Magazine did a multiple page spread on it and also served as mock-arbitrators in the discovery process, determining both the cause and accountability, as well as providing suggestions to prevent future failure.
 
#41 ·
If there is ANY failure of ANY coating, and the end user goes back to the vendor, the FIRST THING THAT VENDOR WILL DO IS DETERMINE IF THE SPEC'S WERE FOLLOWED CORRECTLY! Some products are much more dependent on following those specs than others are. For example conversion varnish. If you vary from the specs as far as catalysation (? Spell check choked on this one!) you will have a real mess on your hands somewhere down the line. I had a customer once using Polane on some exterior signs, and after a year they had hundreds of signs across the country start to peel. When we went back and looked at their application, we found out that their spray guy was grossly under catalyzing the product and not following the specs. They went out of business because they couldn't afford to redo all of those signs. They were based in Mexico, and all those people who bought their signs were screwed. Some of them tried to come after us, but quickly found out that they couldn't based solely on the fact that the specs were not followed and we had proof of it.

Now MOST architectural acrylic paints are at the extreme low end of the spectrum as far as the need to adhere to the specs, but if there ever is a need to go after the manufacturer for a failure you sure as hell better have PROOF that you followed those specs. That is the first thing they will throw out in court.
 
#44 ·
I get that. Like I said, however, out of the millions and millions of walls double coated before spec time, how many failures are there? Sorry. I'll take my chances. How many hours would be wasted by following those specs? How many upset customers would there be if we had to turn their bedroom wall paint into a two day process? How many jobs would we lose by taking the extra time into account when bidding a job?

Worse case scenario: Lets say I eventually have some form of failure on the walls in a bedroom due to recoating too soon. At the absolute worse, I'd have reskim or texture the walls, and "gasp" BUY two more gallons of paint. Over a 40 year career, I'd say its WELL worth the hundreds of hours saved by recoating as soon as you can, as well as the added customer satisfaction by giving them their rooms back sooner.

Yeah, doing trim, or conversion varnishes etc, is a totally different story.
 
#43 ·
When you've painted rooms 2 or 300 times you can generally tell when the paint is ready for a second coat or if it's still a little too risky. Taking into account product, temperature and humidity levels. Not getting stupid about it means not having to come back another day and fixing what you screwed up the day before by recoating too soon.


Experience is a serious helper.
 
#50 · (Edited)
According to Woodco and LB, they've established an entire career circumventing what I would consider best practices (following product TDS for example). And it's not about how successful they've both become with their methods (congratulations!), but rather how dismissive they are about anyone who encourages the execution of established best practices.


And making up your own best practices is exactly that. Made up best practices. Which tends to be a little too rogue for me. And although I can, and have painted with rogue practices, I certainly don't brag about it, or encourage others by the nature of my own personal outcome, to follow suit.


Bottom line, I'm not sold on their customized SOP, despite how successful it's made them.
 
#51 ·
I think you're reading and interpreting a heck of a lot into what Woodie and Lightning boy (myself, Angie M, etc.) are saying. They're using judgement and experience to make decisions based on historical success that are critical to running successful businesses. That's a standard operating procedure you have to follow or you're gonna drive yourself into the ground.


I don't think anyone's trying to sell anyone else on best practices or modified ones or whatever. We're just having a comfortable conversation about working around the dry time of paint.
 
#56 ·
I think you're reading and interpreting a heck of a lot into what Woodie and Lightning boy (myself, Angie M, etc.) are saying. They're using judgement and experience to make decisions based on historical success that are critical to running successful businesses. That's a standard operating procedure you have to follow or you're gonna drive yourself into the ground.


I don't think anyone's trying to sell anyone else on best practices or modified ones or whatever. We're just having a comfortable conversation about working around the dry time of paint.

I'm not the one agitated, or defending anything. I'm simply recognizing best practices.