[Kelly Painting]

My guy gave me his hours today....he was way off.
how does everyone handle others hours?

I've always taken there hours and if they were reasonable..I just payed
Thats how I always did it working for company's for years.


Ya ya...I know..I got to keep track..but they were in a different town
and I was busy all week.

 

[timhag]

I myself keep track of every bodies hours. I keep time cards, writing the times in.

 

[vermontpainter]

Kelly

I give a speech that goes a little something like this..."Hey Justin, your timecard showed you getting on the job at 7 on friday but I noticed you didnt get here until 7:12. I know 12 minutes doesnt seem like a big deal but if that happened every day that would be one hour per week or 4 hours per month, which is a half a day and then if 3 other people did the same thing that would be 4 hours per week or 16 hours per month and if the average employee makes $15/hr that would be $240 per month and over the course of a year that translates to $2880. Now thats quite a pile of money isnt it? So if I am paying you for that 12 minutes, we are starting a trend that could add as much as $2880 to our annual payroll, and of course we all know that our workers comp and payroll taxes are based on payroll, so let me run those numbers real quick for you..."

It only takes about one speech before they dont want to hear it again. Nowadays I can say it jokingly and before I even translate 12 minutes into one week for one employee they are filling in the rest...

Moral: you have to say something.

 

[Tmrrptr]

Kelly, Scott is correct.

It might be time to give 'em the big speech.

They can be an asset to the present company, or they may want to try it on their own. Tell them directly that you must make a profit off their time, or they must be replaced. Don't wait.

 

[Crown Restoration]

I have a folder on the back door of my van.

In the moring I make them sign the time in and at the end of the day I do the same.

No signy, no pay grasshoppa paycheck.

 

[GMack]

This is a good thread and leads me to something else I've been trying to get a hold of recently and that is paying overtime.

As we all know overtime pay has huge effects on payroll tax, workers comp. Our days, though, almost always run over eight hours. I know we could simply end our day at a set time everyday but at that set time, we're rarely at the point we need to be.

Simply a matter of raising prices so there is more budget?

Mack

 

[vermontpainter]

GM

Personally, I hate the effects of OT. I try to avoid it. I think I would take a look at how the day is laid out. Do your guys meet at the shop and drive to the job from there? When does there day start and when does it end? For us, we meet at the jobsite and the day starts when you are in the house and working.

Sometimes you have no choice but to run on overtime to get jobs done, but I do think that if its happening consistently its a good sign that more manpower is needed. I would sooner do that than try to wrap overtime into your pricing. It can be difficult to pass overtime costs on to the customer when ultimately it is our responsibility to have the right size crew for the workload.

 

[GMack]

GM

Personally, I hate the effects of OT. I try to avoid it. I think I would take a look at how the day is laid out. Do your guys meet at the shop and drive to the job from there? When does there day start and when does it end? For us, we meet at the jobsite and the day starts when you are in the house and working.

Sometimes you have no choice but to run on overtime to get jobs done, but I do think that if its happening consistently its a good sign that more manpower is needed. I would sooner do that than try to wrap overtime into your pricing. It can be difficult to pass overtime costs on to the customer when ultimately it is our responsibility to have the right size crew for the workload.

How'd you know we meet here? As we've said, my current setup is a little tough (one employee). He does meet me and we go to the jobs together. In the summer this one employee will have the van and meet the others on the jobs so that should eliminate some unnecesary hours spent traveling.

Even so, eight hours is seven to three-thirty with a half hour for lunch. I suppose it's just a matter of getting used to but to leave (not start cleaning up) at 3:30. Wow! Is this a typical day for others?

As a one-man band, working 9, 10 hours is nothing but as you try to grow, the overtime it seems, will eat a lot of budget fast. I'd like to know how some of the bigger operations deal with this.

Good point that it is our responsibility to show up with the right-sized crew.

Thanks,

Mack

 

[Brian]

Paying piece work eliminates the hour issue. If you pay the employee $X to do the job (or pieces of the job) the hours he spends doing it really don't matter.

Brian Phillips

 

[vermontpainter]

Paying piece work eliminates the hour issue. If you pay the employee $X to do the job (or pieces of the job) the hours he spends doing it really don't matter.

Brian Phillips

That seems like it would be difficult to implement if you have 2-3 employees working on the same batch of work simultaneously. I think its a great idea for a sub crew, but not sure how it would work with employees. Curious to hear if others have tried it.

 

[Alex PCI]

I spent years keeping track of hours, or letting my employee's keep track of their own. Its such a added stress that I sought out to find a solution. That solution at the time was the Job Clock, and once I first implemented it I loved it!! At first, It was an answer to my problem and I recommend it to anyone that has one crew. For me now, it's just not the right thing anymore and I find myself struggling to collect hours again.

Like Brian said, I am working on a piecework system as we speak:thumbup:

 

[Brian]

That seems like it would be difficult to implement if you have 2-3 employees working on the same batch of work simultaneously. I think its a great idea for a sub crew, but not sure how it would work with employees. Curious to hear if others have tried it.

There are a number of ways to do it.

One example: Let's say you allocate 35% of the job to labor and you have 3 guys on the job. The lead guy might get 17%, the next guy 11%, and the last guy 7%. The percentages can be different depending on the skills and responsibilities.

Each knows going in what he will be paid. Each has motivation to work as a team and get the job done efficiently and properly. An amount of peer pressure is created. And you don't need to worry about tracking hours or overtime.

This is a simple example, and there are some other issues that would need to be addressed, but it captures the essence of how it would work.

Brian Phillips

 

[GMack]

There are a number of ways to do it.

One example: Let's say you allocate 35% of the job to labor and you have 3 guys on the job. The lead guy might get 17%, the next guy 11%, and the last guy 7%. The percentages can be different depending on the skills and responsibilities.

Each knows going in what he will be paid. Each has motivation to work as a team and get the job done efficiently and properly. An amount of peer pressure is created. And you don't need to worry about tracking hours or overtime.

This is a simple example, and there are some other issues that would need to be addressed, but it captures the essence of how it would work.

Brian Phillips

This does make sense and I've thought in generalities of paying peicework. I think my biggest fear about it, though, is if I underestimated something. These days, if something is understimated, it's my mistake and I absorb it (of course the same goes for when it is overestimated). If you underestimate paying peicework, your people will really feel it. I know the answer is "don't underestimate," though I'm curious if anybody who does pay peicework finds this to be a problem for his employees. The inconsistency of the pay.

Brian, do you pay your employees peicework?

Thanks,
Mack

 

[Brian]

I think my biggest fear about it, though, is if I underestimated something. These days, if something is understimated, it's my mistake and I absorb it (of course the same goes for when it is overestimated). If you underestimate paying peicework, your people will really feel it. I know the answer is "don't underestimate," though I'm curious if anybody who does pay peicework finds this to be a problem for his employees. The inconsistency of the pay.

One way to address this is to have a guaranteed minimum per hour, so if you do underbid they don't lose their shirt. I probably wouldn't make the minimum equal to their current pay, but it isn't a big issue.

Brian, do you pay your employees peicework?

No. I use all subs, which is essentially the same thing except they supply all labor, material, and equipment.

Brian Phillips

 

[vermontpainter]

Locally, I know the drywall companies do this, and its probably pretty simple for them as their work is x amount of s.f. hung, tape and 3 skims. Needless to say, the hangers and tapers work for next to nothing and hate their circumstances (another thread).

Non-production based paint work is a very subjective process. I have been mulling over the positives and negatives of it all morning. In my case, employee perception of that system would be the key. The incentive for them would be to work faster and more efficiently to make more money, which is good. As long as the quality standards are not compromised.

I think George had discussed his bonus system in a previous thread. If memory serves, it was an overall system in which if the crew finishes the job before friday, they will be paid through friday (bad paraphrase, I'm sure). This might be less cumbersome than breaking the job down into pieces with values attached to them. This is an interesting concept.

 

[Thepaintman]

I think George had discussed his bonus system in a previous thread. If memory serves, it was an overall system in which if the crew finishes the job before friday, they will be paid through friday (bad paraphrase, I'm sure). This might be less cumbersome than breaking the job down into pieces with values attached to them. This is an interesting concept.

In the past when my guys completed the job ahead of schedule I would give them a bonus. This could be extra hours or a certain amount. I paid by the hour and paid for overtime. When I explained that if they could finish the job ahead of schedule they would get a bonus they worked their butts off. They loved this on Fridays in that if they got done by noon Friday I would pay them for a full day. Of course you have to have quality workmanship and also you must factor this in your estimate. This seemed to work for us

Jerry

 

[premierpainter]

Purchase Exactime to trackhours

 

[Kelly Painting]

Purchase Exactime to trackhours

I really hate company's that sell a product and will not put how much the product is on there site.....makes me wonder what else they are hiding!!!!

How much is the job clock?

 

[Alex PCI]

The Job Clock is very expensive. Its about 350 per clock and 400 or so for the software, you also need a current Palm Pilot to collect info, so look at over 1000.00 easily. I will agree with their clams though...it does pay for itself. I saw a big difference in hours per week.
If you are interested in the Job Clock I would be more than happy to tell you whatever you want to know about it.

 

[vermontpainter]

APC magazine came in the mail today, heres a relevant little cautionary tale for us all to file away:

Painting Contractor Ordered to Pay $111,000 in Wages and Fines

(Name Removed) Painting, a Phoenix based painting contractor, was ordered by the US Dept of Labor to pay $111,000 in back wages and penalties. The company, which primarily paints new residential tract homes, is owned by (Name Removed) of Peoria, Ariz.

(Name Removed) Painting will pay 142 current and former employees almost $49,000 in back overtime wages following an investigation by the federal agency into allegations that the company did not pay overtime to employees who had worked more than 40 hour weeks. (Name Removed) Painting also was penalized $62,480 for "willfully misclassifying" wages, according to a statement released by the Labor Department.

Source: Phoenix Business Journal, Nov. 6, 2007.


Every story like this that I hear, whether it relates to workers comp or payroll tax issues, impresses me in the extent to which the penalty ($62,480) more than fits the crime ($49,000). I think it was Timhag who said just the other day, dont mess with this stuff...