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Another Question...

Saw this floor today (photo is just one section), the space was formerly used to retrofit Apache helicopters with new gear boxes for Boeing. Approx 35,000 sq.ft. There was heavy traffic: forklifts, helicopters, etc... Old tenant is out and owner wants the floor to be given a “once over” to look good for the next prospective client. I’m bringing in our industrial flooring rep to meet everyone but he isn’t available until next week. Found some paint left behind from the last time the floor was coated and the dark gray area / yellow lines look like they were Macropoxy 646 and have held up OK. Date on the paint left behind was 2017. Light areas I have no idea what’s on there.

Anyway my question is in regards to prepping a floor like this that looks to be (from my limited experience) in decent condition. Would it be sufficient to degrease the whole floor and then run a walk behind with say 80 grit on it? And would the degreasing be redundant if they were to power wash after grinding the floor? I’m not going to quote anything without the industrial rep just curious and want to be able to answer any general questions they have before next week if it comes up. Also the owner wants Macropoxy again but I’ve personally only recommended our Armorseal line for floors. Sorry for making this a long read and thanks in advance for any advice!

Oh and the the sections of bare concrete are where some kind of machining tools used to sit.
 

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Degrease is the most important issue in preparing a floor. Macopoxy is not suggested on horizontal surfaces. A clear or pigmented MCU would be the easiest route to follow. {Single component Moisture Cure Urethane} Problem is, what is the ventilation and weather conditions? When the material hits the air, it activates. zero pot life. A lower cost would be an Anvil system for commercial areas, with one of the best primers in the industry.

Tough to tell from your pictures, looks like an interior of a shopping center. Two component epoxies are the best suggestion for a 35k uninterrupted flooring area. Your pic shows the surface has a variety of colors? With large areas, you must go with a factory batch standard colors. If you must use SW, you must speak to Commercial sales rep. Call the SW store, ask which store sells zinc dust, one in every city and go or call that store. My old golfing buddy Bill, used to apply 2 to 3mm square feet of epoxy floors a year, you must go factory batch for standard appearance. Dura Bond out of Connecticut. PPG also has industrial stores, ask for the one in your area. Good luck
 

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agree with the shot blasting. I would sub that out to a concrete cutting company. They have what looks like zamboni's that blast the surface off, and vacuum the majority at the same time.
Degrease is the most important issue in preparing a floor. Macopoxy is not suggested on horizontal surfaces. A clear or pigmented MCU would be the easiest route to follow. {Single component Moisture Cure Urethane} Problem is, what is the ventilation and weather conditions? When the material hits the air, it activates. zero pot life. A lower cost would be an Anvil system for commercial areas, with one of the best primers in the industry.

Tough to tell from your pictures, looks like an interior of a shopping center. Two component epoxies are the best suggestion for a 35k uninterrupted flooring area. Your pic shows the surface has a variety of colors? With large areas, you must go with a factory batch standard colors. If you must use SW, you must speak to Commercial sales rep. Call the SW store, ask which store sells zinc dust, one in every city and go or call that store. My old golfing buddy Bill, used to apply 2 to 3mm square feet of epoxy floors a year, you must go factory batch for standard appearance. Dura Bond out of Connecticut. PPG also has industrial stores, ask for the one in your area. Good luck
Shot blasting requires a "Brown coat" to level the damage and appearance. The brown coat is trinity white cement with 6-20 silica sand and a MC 76 resin additive, getting labor intensive. You are approaching $15 a square foot. A floor urethane or epoxy meets UL standards for nonslip and safety. Macropoxy is more for steel applications. Ventilation is the key for survival, Oh, if forgot, you must use the crows foot method of application. UGH
 

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A couple of things to think about.

We have used Macropoxy on floors and even had it specified in areas for concrete floor that get foot or light vehicle traffic. They may have used it before and had good luck, but you need to questions if SW is going to be willing to warranty it due to the "Intended Service Environment."

To CocoMonkeyNuts Credit, the PDS for Macropoxy doesn't specifically state "Floor Coating" but it does have a "Slip Coefficient" listed which is intended for surfaces that get walked on. So yes it can be used, but the issue is the warranty.

We recently did a Hangar for Delta Airlines and the Specification was terrible. They had listed Rustoleum (Seal Krete) Clear Seal [PDS]

At first glance it does say: Garages, but it's appears to mean a residential garages. We (eventually) had a conversation with the Architect and had to go through a bunch of hoops to figure out what needed to be used.

Problem #1 - We realized this is a Maintenance hangar for their automotive vehicles (Not airplanes) so there exists the possibility for Motor Oil, Transmission Fluid, Gasoline, etc. being spilled on the floor. All at a much higher volume than a residential garage. So the supplier needs to be able to warrant the material for it "intended environment." The other problem was finding a material that wouldn't be slippery when it got wet. (Also it being at an Airport and us being in California, we wanted to make sure that our butt is covered for any leaks that would turn a portion of the runway into a Toxic Superfund site.)

Ultimately we settled on PPG Amerlock 2. PPG was willing to warrant it - But we had to:
  • Moisture test the concrete for an acceptable moisture transmission.
  • Do Sufficient Concrete Prep (ICRI CSP-3) We also had to get a letter from PPG stating that they would accept Grinding with a Diamabrush as an acceptable CSP-3
  • Cut Keyways into the Concrete at the edges of the coating to limit weak point for the coating lifting.
  • Both of the above required a Silica Dust Plan and us to both Wet Grind and Wet Cut to limit Silica dust from the concrete. (California again)
To get past the Non-Slip issue, we had to embed Aluminum Oxide into the First Coat and Apply a second coat over top.

Problem #2 - There was a designated Battery Room that needed an even greater level of containment. PPG suggested Novaguard 840 which required all the same prep as above and a Cove Base around the room and filling of the Expansion Joints in the Concrete. It also needed a Non Slip surface and got the same aluminum oxide treatment.

Any purpose of the long story above is to REALLY think about the project and what it is going to entail.
  • Do they want a warranty?
  • What kind of warranty? (1 year? 5 Year? etc.)
  • What kind of surface prep is required? (Clean? Shot Blast? Etc.)
  • Going over the Macropoxy with more Macropoxy makes sense, (Warranty issues aside) but if you don't know what the other coatings are, will the Macropoxy stick to those coatings? Will the Coating fail once the Epoxy dries and shrinks?
  • Is any of it exposed to sunlight? (Epoxy's are not UV stable.)
  • If you are doing the Floor Prep, are there Silica Dust regulations you need to follow?
Macropoxy is an equal to Amerlock 2. It is likely up to the job, but you need to make sure you know all the variables and THINK through it before signing off on it.

If you want to be REALLY sure, Sandblasting the surface to remove the existing coatings is a sure bet, but you need to worry about the level of CSP required, and be aware that the Profile will show through the coating if it's too aggressive. (You can see the lines that the grinder traveled on through the epoxy.)

Best advice is ask a lot of questions and make sure you get them answered. MOST SPECIFICALLY about what Warranty is required, and the competency of the Installer.

P.S. Sherwin Williams bought General Polymers for this specific reason. So hopefully your Industrial Rep is good!
 

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spilled on
A couple of things to think about.

We have used Macropoxy on floors and even had it specified in areas for concrete floor that get foot or light vehicle traffic. They may have used it before and had good luck, but you need to questions if SW is going to be willing to warranty it due to the "Intended Service Environment."

To CocoMonkeyNuts Credit, the PDS for Macropoxy doesn't specifically state "Floor Coating" but it does have a "Slip Coefficient" listed which is intended for surfaces that get walked on. So yes it can be used, but the issue is the warranty.

We recently did a Hangar for Delta Airlines and the Specification was terrible. They had listed Rustoleum (Seal Krete) Clear Seal [PDS]

At first glance it does say: Garages, but it's appears to mean a residential garages. We (eventually) had a conversation with the Architect and had to go through a bunch of hoops to figure out what needed to be used.

Problem #1 - We realized this is a Maintenance hangar for their automotive vehicles (Not airplanes) so there exists the possibility for Motor Oil, Transmission Fluid, Gasoline, etc. being spilled on the floor. All at a much higher volume than a residential garage. So the supplier needs to be able to warrant the material for it "intended environment." The other problem was finding a material that wouldn't be slippery when it got wet. (Also it being at an Airport and us being in California, we wanted to make sure that our butt is covered for any leaks that would turn a portion of the runway into a Toxic Superfund site.)

Ultimately we settled on PPG Amerlock 2. PPG was willing to warrant it - But we had to:
  • Moisture test the concrete for an acceptable moisture transmission.
  • Do Sufficient Concrete Prep (ICRI CSP-3) We also had to get a letter from PPG stating that they would accept Grinding with a Diamabrush as an acceptable CSP-3
  • Cut Keyways into the Concrete at the edges of the coating to limit weak point for the coating lifting.
  • Both of the above required a Silica Dust Plan and us to both Wet Grind and Wet Cut to limit Silica dust from the concrete. (California again)
To get past the Non-Slip issue, we had to embed Aluminum Oxide into the First Coat and Apply a second coat over top.

Problem #2 - There was a designated Battery Room that needed an even greater level of containment. PPG suggested Novaguard 840 which required all the same prep as above and a Cove Base around the room and filling of the Expansion Joints in the Concrete. It also needed a Non Slip surface and got the same aluminum oxide treatment.

Any purpose of the long story above is to REALLY think about the project and what it is going to entail.
  • Do they want a warranty?
  • What kind of warranty? (1 year? 5 Year? etc.)
  • What kind of surface prep is required? (Clean? Shot Blast? Etc.)
  • Going over the Macropoxy with more Macropoxy makes sense, (Warranty issues aside) but if you don't know what the other coatings are, will the Macropoxy stick to those coatings? Will the Coating fail once the Epoxy dries and shrinks?
  • Is any of it exposed to sunlight? (Epoxy's are not UV stable.)
  • If you are doing the Floor Prep, are there Silica Dust regulations you need to follow?
Macropoxy is an equal to Amerlock 2. It is likely up to the job, but you need to make sure you know all the variables and THINK through it before signing off on it.

If you want to be REALLY sure, Sandblasting the surface to remove the existing coatings is a sure bet, but you need to worry about the level of CSP required, and be aware that the Profile will show through the coating if it's too aggressive. (You can see the lines that the grinder traveled on through the epoxy.)

Best advice is ask a lot of questions and make sure you get them answered. MOST SPECIFICALLY about what Warranty is required, and the competency of the Installer.

P.S. Sherwin Williams bought General Polymers for this specific reason. So hopefully your Industrial Rep is good!
I'm surprised PPG would have written a spec that didn't include a urethane topcoat.
 

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I'm surprised PPG would have written a spec that didn't include a urethane topcoat.
There was no UV exposure so it was a non issue. Also the technical rep for our area (Nye Miller) is awesome.

Having a basic knowledge of coatings properties / chemistry helps a lot when dealing with Manufacturer's. Otherwise they will try and sell you something you may not actually need.
 

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There was no UV exposure so it was a non issue. Also the technical rep for our area (Nye Miller) is awesome.

Having a basic knowledge of coatings properties / chemistry helps a lot when dealing with Manufacturer's. Otherwise they will try and sell you something you may not actually need.
More specifically urethanes are commonly spec'd where there is expected exposure to hydraulic fluids and fuel as they are far more resistant than polyamide epoxy
 

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More specifically urethanes are commonly spec'd where there is expected exposure to hydraulic fluids and fuel as they are far more resistant than polyamide epoxy
My understanding (which I will admit is limited) is that Amerlock 2 VOC is listed as a "High Solids" Epoxy and the Curing agent uses Amines (Not Amides) which give it a greater Chemical Resistance than an Amide Cured Epoxy.

Given, an Aliphatic Urethane (Like Amershield) is going to have a higher and broader range of Chemical resistance, but Amerlock was deemed suitable for the service environment. (Mostly due to wear.)

Now if Polyester Poly was compliant per SCQAMD, then it would have been a different story! :ROFLMAO:
 

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A couple of things to think about.

We have used Macropoxy on floors and even had it specified in areas for concrete floor that get foot or light vehicle traffic. They may have used it before and had good luck, but you need to questions if SW is going to be willing to warranty it due to the "Intended Service Environment."

To CocoMonkeyNuts Credit, the PDS for Macropoxy doesn't specifically state "Floor Coating" but it does have a "Slip Coefficient" listed which is intended for surfaces that get walked on. So yes it can be used, but the issue is the warranty.

We recently did a Hangar for Delta Airlines and the Specification was terrible. They had listed Rustoleum (Seal Krete) Clear Seal [PDS]

At first glance it does say: Garages, but it's appears to mean a residential garages. We (eventually) had a conversation with the Architect and had to go through a bunch of hoops to figure out what needed to be used.

Problem #1 - We realized this is a Maintenance hangar for their automotive vehicles (Not airplanes) so there exists the possibility for Motor Oil, Transmission Fluid, Gasoline, etc. being spilled on the floor. All at a much higher volume than a residential garage. So the supplier needs to be able to warrant the material for it "intended environment." The other problem was finding a material that wouldn't be slippery when it got wet. (Also it being at an Airport and us being in California, we wanted to make sure that our butt is covered for any leaks that would turn a portion of the runway into a Toxic Superfund site.)

Ultimately we settled on PPG Amerlock 2. PPG was willing to warrant it - But we had to:
  • Moisture test the concrete for an acceptable moisture transmission.
  • Do Sufficient Concrete Prep (ICRI CSP-3) We also had to get a letter from PPG stating that they would accept Grinding with a Diamabrush as an acceptable CSP-3
  • Cut Keyways into the Concrete at the edges of the coating to limit weak point for the coating lifting.
  • Both of the above required a Silica Dust Plan and us to both Wet Grind and Wet Cut to limit Silica dust from the concrete. (California again)
To get past the Non-Slip issue, we had to embed Aluminum Oxide into the First Coat and Apply a second coat over top.

Problem #2 - There was a designated Battery Room that needed an even greater level of containment. PPG suggested Novaguard 840 which required all the same prep as above and a Cove Base around the room and filling of the Expansion Joints in the Concrete. It also needed a Non Slip surface and got the same aluminum oxide treatment.

Any purpose of the long story above is to REALLY think about the project and what it is going to entail.
  • Do they want a warranty?
  • What kind of warranty? (1 year? 5 Year? etc.)
  • What kind of surface prep is required? (Clean? Shot Blast? Etc.)
  • Going over the Macropoxy with more Macropoxy makes sense, (Warranty issues aside) but if you don't know what the other coatings are, will the Macropoxy stick to those coatings? Will the Coating fail once the Epoxy dries and shrinks?
  • Is any of it exposed to sunlight? (Epoxy's are not UV stable.)
  • If you are doing the Floor Prep, are there Silica Dust regulations you need to follow?
Macropoxy is an equal to Amerlock 2. It is likely up to the job, but you need to make sure you know all the variables and THINK through it before signing off on it.

If you want to be REALLY sure, Sandblasting the surface to remove the existing coatings is a sure bet, but you need to worry about the level of CSP required, and be aware that the Profile will show through the coating if it's too aggressive. (You can see the lines that the grinder traveled on through the epoxy.)

Best advice is ask a lot of questions and make sure you get them answered. MOST SPECIFICALLY about what Warranty is required, and the competency of the Installer.

P.S. Sherwin Williams bought General Polymers for this specific reason. So hopefully your Industrial Rep is good!
Good work, sounds like you have been doing this a long time.

In 2012 an inexperienced SW sales rep had a exotic car collector who wanted Maserati Red matched to perfection as his floor color. This was only 6k sq feet floor in Southeast Florida. The Macropoxy did not work to the customers satisfaction as 1. The color inconsistency was terrible. As you are aware, an epoxy or Urethane will show a different color if applied on a different day or weather conditions. Application is difficult as the product does not work well with a squeegeeing. 2. Excellent idea or I have recommended having "expansion Joints" cut into the concrete to allow for possible hydrostatic issues, very common in SE Florida. 3. Your suggestion of Armourseal in a Haze Gray factory batch using a flake system to minimize the uneven appearance when any coating is applied on a floor. Top coat it with a variety of clear coatings. The Armourseal is the most cost effective.

Dura Bond uses a 100% solids epoxy with a quartz additive added for an attractive finish. Go look at any commercial kitchen and see how beautifully the floor is pitched and leveled to effect proper drainage. They shot blast and slurry coat every floor before the epoxy floor is applied. Again, well over $10 a square foot.

Having worked for both companies, I suggest you go with the sales rep who will stand behind you, you need a demonstration of products they recommend. Samples applied to the substrate, hands on by the respective sales rep. I know PPG is working with the Seminole Hard Rock Cafe to come up with a system that minimizes commercial traffic wear and tear and stays attractive day in and day out. I'm sure you realize Skydrol and transmission oil are the most volatile to the existing surface.

When SW acquired Valspar in 2007 or 8, Valspar had the McWhorter resin and emulsion division along with Federal Chemicals epoxy flooring systems, the recognized experts in flooring systems? The General Polymers will be just digested into the SW world of obsolete acquisitions. I believe Amerilock easily outsells Macropoxy in Florida. Read the label carefully, you need a copy of the warranty up front from both manufacturers. The more I write, the more I am convinced that the paint flake system is the only hope of creating an attractive finish. Most paint contractors that I have seen as failed or bankrupted took on a job that they were not experienced in or were underfunded to handle the job. I'm sure you are aware you are looking at 200 gallons of epoxy or Urethane. Material costs closing in on 14k. Work with the rep to determine their knowledge of their products. Do it right, protect yourself.
 

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My understanding (which I will admit is limited) is that Amerlock 2 VOC is listed as a "High Solids" Epoxy and the Curing agent uses Amines (Not Amides) which give it a greater Chemical Resistance than an Amide Cured Epoxy.

Given, an Aliphatic Urethane (Like Amershield) is going to have a higher and broader range of Chemical resistance, but Amerlock was deemed suitable for the service environment. (Mostly due to wear.)

Now if Polyester Poly was compliant per SCQAMD, then it would have been a different story! :ROFLMAO:
I also was under the impression that amines were more chemical resistant than amides, or polyurethanes (amides for chems, amides for water barrier ,and polyurethane for UV protection).

I believe amines are also used in chemical storage containments along with B-Phenols, as I remember. However, amines are extremely UV unstable unlike urethanes. Also, hydrocarbons are a different beast than say a chemical like Sodium hypochlorite. I'm leaning to the amide for oil protection, but I would get a coating expert's opinion.

I've had good success with Amerlock 400 (now Am 2) and amorshield polyurethane as an aesthetically pleasing top coat with UV protection.
 

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I also was under the impression that amines were more chemical resistant than amides, or polyurethanes (amides for chems, amides for water barrier ,and polyurethane for UV protection).

I believe amines are also used in chemical storage containments along with B-Phenols, as I remember. However, amines are extremely UV unstable unlike urethanes. Also, hydrocarbons are a different beast than say a chemical like Sodium hypochlorite. I'm leaning to the amide for oil protection, but I would get a coating expert's opinion.

I've had good success with Amerlock 400 (now Am 2) and amorshield polyurethane as an aesthetically pleasing top coat with UV protection.
I've never sold the product, but I believe Amerlock is a 12 to 20 mil system with a 75ft per gallon spread rate and I read the product to have a label warranty limiting the liability to the cost of the product. The product I believe that "Might work" is Pitthane with a non skid aggregate added for a non slip system. Sand the floor with a sander and do a test area before committing. Please, please check with your sales rep for any adverse reactions from his previous experience. My gas station painters utilize this system in a high commercial area like the front of a 7 Eleven floor. In my experience, urethanes adhere well on top of epoxies and urethanes, two component, ventilation is critical for usage. again, your floor appears very chopped up. Work with the facility owner, does he want the Maserati or the bicycle finish? how critical is the appearance?
 
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