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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm on several Facebook groups ánd I'm noticing an unsettling trend of cabinet painters promoting and glorifying 2k poly products to DIYers.

I am almost certain that these painters have scarce knowledge regarding the content in these products(isocyanates), and are shamelessly disparaging other paints like BM and SW, claiming that if you use these products on cabinets- you are a hack.

I have not seen anyone discuss the dangers of 2k polys, which leads me to believe that these people have no idea what's in them. Just because they are water based does not mean they are any less harmful than solvent based products.

And yes, some of these water based 2k polys are still flammable.
 

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I was under the impression that 2k products weren't available to DIYer's. I could be wrong but I know here in Canada you have to be certified to buy lacquer products and prove you have proper ventilation etc in your shop. There is a good reason too.
 

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I'm on several Facebook groups ánd I'm noticing an unsettling trend of cabinet painters promoting and glorifying 2k poly products to DIYers.

I am almost certain that these painters have scarce knowledge regarding the content in these products(isocyanates), and are shamelessly disparaging other paints like BM and SW, claiming that if you use these products on cabinets- you are a hack.

I have not seen anyone discuss the dangers of 2k polys, which leads me to believe that these people have no idea what's in them. Just because they are water based does not mean they are any less harmful than solvent based products.

And yes, some of these water based 2k polys are still flammable.
As a former paint Rep, it's a selling point for them. In the Dallas market there's a ton of Franchise painters and they combat that by their expertise and using 2K products that they know the sub-crews that franchise outfits use would not be able to work with. I personally always liked those guys as they were very into their craft and turning out nice work. They normally remove doors and fronts and do them in their shop and were very aware of the dangers they are exposed to and use the proper safety equipment. JMO.
 

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I was working with a millwork shop this past spring assisting with some shop-finishing, utilizing WB 1K/2K finishes w/an optional aziridine crosslinker and/or an HDI isocyanate catalyst. The shop owner’s cousin had a severe respiratory reaction to the 2K finishes and ended up in the ER, but I might add that he wasn’t wearing a respirator and was spraying in the drying room & not in the spray booth. The company has since eliminated the use of isocyanate catalysts and aziridine crosslinkers as a result of the incident, and have only been shooting 1K finishes. Although there’s no documented OSHA fatality incidents that I know of involving HDI vs the more toxic TDI, they can result in severe asthmatic attacks and/or the user developing occupational asthma.
 

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I have switched to WB poly products, exclusively Envirolak from Canada. I'm very happy with the results, although a learning curve spraying verticals!!

I think as a business owner and salesman, you do, need to explain the differences in what you are offering vs. a competitor. The average DIY consumer will just look at price. I am normally double to triple what someone else will be at for run of the mill enamels, sprayed on a ladder outside and then boxes brush and rolled. All my work is sprayed.

I use the 150 crosslinker which is non-isocynate hardener. I belive Envirolak is working on a new 100 hardener that is non-as well.
 

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I was under the impression that 2k products weren't available to DIYer's. I could be wrong but I know here in Canada you have to be certified to buy lacquer products and prove you have proper ventilation etc in your shop. There is a good reason too.
At least here in the states the 2K stuff is available online to the general public through sites like Timberlane finishes or water-basedfinish.com.
 

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It appears that the health damage from the 2k polys is something that one would notice during or soon after use as mentioned by @Redux, whereas health concerns I always had about chemicals (i.e. lead exposure) were things that would accumulate and build up slowly over time, unbeknownst to me until it there was irreversible damage. Is anyone else reading it like that?

That would seem to make the 2K polys a bit safer from a standpoint of being aware of any health issues as they occurred rather than after it's too late.

I've yet to use 2k myself, but I do have a can of Renner with catalyst I'm going to try when I get the chance. I've been pretty impressed with Renner and Envirolak 1k from some testing I've done.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
It appears that the health damage from the 2k polys is something that one would notice during or soon after use as mentioned by @Redux, whereas health concerns I always had about chemicals (i.e. lead exposure) were things that would accumulate and build up slowly over time, unbeknownst to me until it there was irreversible damage. Is anyone else reading it like that?

That would seem to make the 2K polys a bit safer from a standpoint of being aware of any health issues as they occurred rather than after it's too late.

I've yet to use 2k myself, but I do have a can of Renner with catalyst I'm going to try when I get the chance. I've been pretty impressed with Renner and Envirolak 1k from some testing I've done.
Yea I'm not too sure. But I've been spraying 2k like a mad man, though in a spray booth that's ventilated, and I've recently found out about the dangers of it. The painters around me don't even use a respirator when spraying this stuff, which is remarkably stupid. They either are unaware of the toxicity, or they plainly don't give a ****. This is probably going to be my last time spraying it unless I buy a good respiratory system.
 

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Yea I'm not too sure. But I've been spraying 2k like a mad man, though in a spray booth that's ventilated, and I've recently found out about the dangers of it. The painters around me don't even use a respirator when spraying this stuff, which is remarkably stupid. They either are unaware of the toxicity, or they plainly don't give a ****. This is probably going to be my last time spraying it unless I buy a good respiratory system.
Yeah I can't speak either way as I haven't used it. From what I've read and heard from others it seems like if you're spraying with a respirator in a ventilated situation you're probably okay. Why some would spray that without a respirator I don't know.
 

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Yeah I can't speak either way as I haven't used it. From what I've read and heard from others it seems like if you're spraying with a respirator in a ventilated situation you're probably okay. Why some would spray that without a respirator I don't know.
Unfortunately that’s not always the case…below is link to an OSHA accident report involving an employee fatality when spraying only a minor amount of isocyanate catalyzed clear-coat outdoors, even while wearing a respirator…one of several instances whereby workers had become sensitized after prolonged use and were overcome after being exposed to only small amounts.

Accident Report Detail | Occupational Safety and Health Administration osha.gov

I’ve been working with isocyanates regularly since the 1980s and have been very fortunate up until a couple of years ago after finishing a couple sets of stairways with a WB 2K clear and experienced a several months’ long bout with severe asthma after having never been asthmatic. I had a bad reaction shortly thereafter when performing a minor touch up with a 2K clear in my own home….not fun..
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Unfortunately that’s not always the case…below is link to an OSHA accident report involving an employee fatality when spraying only a minor amount of isocyanate catalyzed clear-coat outdoors, even while wearing a respirator…one of several instances whereby workers had become sensitized after prolonged use and were overcome after being exposed to only small amounts.

Accident Report Detail | Occupational Safety and Health Administration osha.gov

I’ve been working with isocyanates regularly since the 1980s and have been very fortunate up until a couple of years ago after finishing a couple sets of stairways with a WB 2K clear and experienced a several months’ long bout with severe asthma after having never been asthmatic. I had a bad reaction shortly thereafter when performing a minor touch up with a 2K clear in my own home….not fun..
That sounds really concerning. What kind of respirator do you use? And also, did you do the touch up with a sprayer or brush and roller? I'm pretty sure with sufficient ventilation, brushing and rolling isn't dangerous with the ISO.
 

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I have switched to WB poly products, exclusively Envirolak from Canada. I'm very happy with the results, although a learning curve spraying verticals!!

I think as a business owner and salesman, you do, need to explain the differences in what you are offering vs. a competitor. The average DIY consumer will just look at price. I am normally double to triple what someone else will be at for run of the mill enamels, sprayed on a ladder outside and then boxes brush and rolled. All my work is sprayed.

I use the 150 crosslinker which is non-isocynate hardener. I belive Envirolak is working on a new 100 hardener that is non-as well.
Is it true that Envirolak has a 2 hour pot life?
 

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I'm on several Facebook groups ánd I'm noticing an unsettling trend of cabinet painters promoting and glorifying 2k poly products to DIYers. I am almost certain that these painters have scarce knowledge regarding the content in these products(isocyanates), and are shamelessly disparaging other paints like BM and SW, claiming that if you use these products on cabinets- you are a hack. I have not seen anyone discuss the dangers of 2k polys, which leads me to believe that these people have no idea what's in them. Just because they are water based does not mean they are any less harmful than solvent based products. And yes, some of these water based 2k polys are still flammable.
For the DIYers out there you can’t go wrong with the Benjamin Moore Scuff-X. This product is the best thing I’ve seen in 38 yrs of painting. Most durable water based paint I’ve ever used. I have it on my cabinets that were stained and laquered maple. They are easy to clean and finish is rock solid!!
 

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For the DIYers out there you can’t go wrong with the Benjamin Moore Scuff-X. This product is the best thing I’ve seen in 38 yrs of painting. Most durable water based paint I’ve ever used. I have it on my cabinets that were stained and laquered maple. They are easy to clean and finish is rock solid!!
Did you use the satin or semi. We tried it out on a job but the homeowner complained that the satin finish was very flat and I agreed. The Ben Moore store had recommended Cabinet Coat, so we ended up using that as the final finish. It had a truer satin finish. I may try the semi to see how that looks.
 

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Did you use the satin or semi. We tried it out on a job but the homeowner complained that the satin finish was very flat and I agreed. The Ben Moore store had recommended Cabinet Coat, so we ended up using that as the final finish. It had a truer satin finish. I may try the semi to see how that looks.
The satin might be a little duller than some, but I like it. I sprayed a coffee table, set of tower speakers and an entertainment center with factory black over stix 3-4 years ago. For some reason, the entertainment center, still has everything set on it stick a bit... I thought it was the paint, but it just now dawned on me that nothing sticks to the speakers or coffee table, just the entertainment center... IDK.... But seriously, it goes on SO nice..

Its actually a lot like Durapoxy from Kelly Moore. They have new urethanized version of it now, that I havent tried, but Durapoxy was great! It sticks to old oil base, looks like oil, and rock hard. AS much as I love Scuff-X, I would trust it over oil base without a prime. I did some hillbilly tests, and it did okay, but not as good as durapoxy.
 
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