[vermontpainter]

{The original Hiring Contractors thread is recommended reading for participation in this thread, otherwise you will have no idea what we are discussing.}

In the spirit of the original Hiring Contractors thread, here is a sequel that has been on my mind:

Go out of business for a few minutes. Think as a consumer of trade related services and not a professional. In the initial Hiring Contractors thread, I described my plumber and my electrician. Real people, real services, true story.

For the purposes of this thread, lets change one fact about them. Instead of a plumber and an electrician, lets make them a plumber and a plumber, or an electrician and an electrician. The trade doesnt really matter, the principles are the same.

You can still refer to the plumber's business model as "P", and the electrician's business model as "E". If you need further information from me to answer the following question, please ask.

Here's the question:

If you are a homeowner presented with these two services, which one will you do business with?

 

[Dave Mac]

{The original Hiring Contractors thread is recommended reading for participation in this thread, otherwise you will have no idea what we are discussing.}

In the spirit of the original Hiring Contractors thread, here is a sequel that has been on my mind:

Go out of business for a few minutes. Think as a consumer of trade related services and not a professional. In the initial Hiring Contractors thread, I described my plumber and my electrician. Real people, real services, true story.

For the purposes of this thread, lets change one fact about them. Instead of a plumber and an electrician, lets make them a plumber and a plumber, or an electrician and an electrician. The trade doesnt really matter, the principles are the same.

You can still refer to the plumber's business model as "P", and the electrician's business model as "E". If you need further information from me to answer the following question, please ask.

Here's the question:

If you are a homeowner presented with these two services, which one will you do business with?

Based on your referall Scott, its a no brainer the Plumber offers far more value for the dollar. As you said you actually tip him.

But the E would probaly get my buisness if they were both cold estimates.

dave mac

 

[NEPS.US]

The Electrician ...... I've been told on several occasions (on bids I've won) that I was not the lowest bid but I had the best presentation.......... Professionalism goes a LONG way!

 

[Brian]

If you are a homeowner presented with these two services, which one will you do business with?

It would depend on the context. I have hired both, and would do so again.

For certain work, I'm less concerned about quality, timliness, and other issues. For example, the tree trimmers. If they showed up late, I could care less. I left the gate open and went to the office. However, if it was someone who needed to get in the house or needed me present, it would be a different issue. I'm not really sure how to judge the quality of the work the tree trimmers did. I wanted the dead wood out, branches off the roof, etc. They did that. They cleaned up well. They did minimal damage (I expected some, given the amount of wood that was falling from the sky.) In other words, my standards were pretty minimal.

For other work, I'm going to be looking for other criteria. Showing up on time, being clean, etc. would become more important.

To apply this to painting, I can understand when someone is putting their house on the market and just want to put a fresh coat of paint on the exterior-- they just want it to look good. They aren't looking for a 10 year paint job, and certainly don't want to pay for it.

In short, the values I am seeking will vary depending on the context. The context will determine which values are most important to me, and thus, which contractor I would select. The same is true of my customers (selling for multiple contractors gives me tremendous flexibility in this situation).

Brian Phillips

 

[GMack]

I'm not the best person to ask because I only call people who I know or who have been referred to me by people I trust. As long as they come off as knowledgeable, I'm going to have them do the job. I don't shop! Never had a bad experience with a contractor in my life.

That said, great question, Scott. We are asking people to pay top dollar for our services but I don't know if all of us would be willing to pay top dollar for services we seek.

 

[vermontpainter]

We are asking people to pay top dollar for our services but I don't know if all of us would be willing to pay top dollar for services we seek.

Therein lies the paradox. Would it make me a hypocrite if I hired P, knowing that E was running the more proper and likely long standing operation?

Great responses...and I honestly am torn on this one. Dave says P is by far the better value. I'm wrestling with whether equal quality at a lower price necessarily constitutes better value.

NEPS...I can relate, I have had the same feedback alot as the lucky winner of jobs holding the high bid. I love to see that succeed.

Brian's point about context is a good one too. Plumbing and electrical are the two services that I hire out every single time, and I expect to pay for those technical skills. As it applies to painting, you raise an excellent point about your selling for multiple contractors, you can plug in the appropriate one. Selling one paint crew, we walk away (or lose on price) when its not a good fit for our company. We can't lower standards and prices too far to fit a given situation, or we would find ourselves doing it every single time. You are in a fortunate situation to have the right fit for a variety of contexts.

GMack...same here. In trades we probably have much higher success rates in hiring contractors because we know alot of people and know general standards and practices for alot of other trades. And you are right that its a good exercise to put the shoe on the other foot and think like the homeowner sometimes.

Thanks guys.

 

[GMack]

To apply this to painting, I can understand when someone is putting their house on the market and just want to put a fresh coat of paint on the exterior-- they just want it to look good. They aren't looking for a 10 year paint job, and certainly don't want to pay for it.

In short, the values I am seeking will vary depending on the context. The context will determine which values are most important to me, and thus, which contractor I would select.

In my experience most people are going to go for the highest quality job or none at all. But there are some who are looking for a quick fix depending on their situation (like Brian says). For the small percentage of times this is the case, I don't think it negatively affects our reputations for quality enough to justify turning down the work. I know for my business, this is an area where I can grow. One way I'm starting to do this is to break down numbers very well on estimates. Maybe they're only looking for one coat. When they get the estimate, now they can choose the job they desire, knowing, of course, the job I reccommend may be different.

 

[Brian]

In my experience most people are going to go for the highest quality job or none at all. But there are some who are looking for a quick fix depending on their situation (like Brian says). For the small percentage of times this is the case, I don't think it negatively affects our reputations for quality enough to justify turning down the work. I know for my business, this is an area where I can grow. One way I'm starting to do this is to break down numbers very well on estimates. Maybe they're only looking for one coat. When they get the estimate, now they can choose the job they desire, knowing, of course, the job I reccommend may be different.

I get a fair number of calls for people putting their house up for sale. I put a lot of effort into determining what kind of job they want. Sometimes it's a blow and go, sometimes it's a true professional job. I can then decide if it is a compromise or not.

If it is a compromise for me, I tell them. I explain that they may not care if the paint fails in 2 years, but their neighbors will see our sign in the yard, and when they see the paint falling off they will never call me. I'd rather pass than do that.

In the short term I lose jobs. In the long term I protect my reputation. Focusing on the long term has a lot more benefits for everyone involved.

Brian Phillips

 

[GMack]

In the short term I lose jobs. In the long term I protect my reputation. Focusing on the long term has a lot more benefits for everyone involved.

Brian Phillips[/quote]

I do hear you Brian, but the kinds of things I'm talking about cutting out are number of coats. All prep is done exactly the same so paint will not just start peeling. Maybe, though, coverage is not as absolute as with the higher quality job.

 

[vermontpainter]

I see what you're saying GM, and if its the difference between getting your foot in the door with a good customer or not, I would do that.

Its unfortunate when they opt out of the second coat, because its the easiest one to apply and gives so much more durability. And I know you pull your hair out over it too.

 

[Brian]

Several years ago we wanted an addition to our house. I tried and tried to get estimates, and had all kinds of problems even getting contractors to show up to discuss the project.

Finally some showed up, and only one gave me any information about his company. I immediately liked him the best. Then he submitted a very detailed proposal. Nobody else gave me anything in writing. I hired him, even though he was the lowest price, because I knew what I was getting. His initial proposal had some things wrong, and he quickly corrected it, again in writing. I was very pleased with the work. (In fact, I'm sitting in the addition as I write this.)

There are a lot of conscientious, high quality contractors out there. For my own house, I wouldn't hesitate to hire them. In the context of this forum, I hope they don't stay that way.

I would have paid more to get what I wanted and needed. But I didn't need to. That wasn't my fault, but rather the contractor's. He didn't value his services as much as I did. His loss, my gain.

Brian Phillips

 

[GMack]

I see what you're saying GM, and if its the difference between getting your foot in the door with a good customer or not, I would do that.

Its unfortunate when they opt out of the second coat, because its the easiest one to apply and gives so much more durability. And I know you pull your hair out over it too.

I also hear what you are saying, Scott, but let me give an example of the the kind of thing I'm talking about. Had an exterior estimate a few weeks ago. (I think I told you about this one). Most existing paint is in great condition (fading a little) though south side is starting to peel. I estimate two coats on everything. Pretty big number so they ask about the possibility of one coat (all colors are remaining the same). I tell them that there are a couple of sections which I strongly reccomend doing the two coats. Other than that, I think we can do the one coat job as long "as long as you are proactive in dealing with anything that may come up." I then lecture them on the importance of maintaining their investment. Now I have a customer who will pay less for a long-lasting paint job, and will call me to maintain that paint job over the years. I wouldn't call this unfortunate; I'd call it win-win.

 

[vermontpainter]

I also hear what you are saying, Scott, but let me give an example of the the kind of thing I'm talking about. Had an exterior estimate a few weeks ago. (I think I told you about this one). Most existing paint is in great condition (fading a little) though south side is starting to peel. I estimate two coats on everything. Pretty big number so they ask about the possibility of one coat (all colors are remaining the same). I tell them that there are a couple of sections which I strongly reccomend doing the two coats. Other than that, I think we can do the one coat job as long "as long as you are proactive in dealing with anything that may come up." I then lecture them on the importance of maintaining their investment. Now I have a customer who will pay less for a long-lasting paint job, and will call me to maintain that paint job over the years. I wouldn't call this unfortunate; I'd call it win-win.

I agree. From a retention standpoint, its a winner.

 

[GMack]

I agree. From a retention standpoint, its a winner.

Also, chances are that they will have problems with the south side again before they have problems with the rest of the house.

I won't do what I consider to be a sub-standard job but I have been, recently, trying to be more honest with myself about what my customers really need. Let's face it: we are asking people to pay big money to have their homes painted by us. Like we've talked about, I will never come down on price outright but if we can adjust scope of work and are still comfortable with what we're doing, I think it's a pretty sound business practice.

 

[vermontpainter]

I think it's a pretty sound business practice.

More than that, its really smart. It ties in nicely with Brians contribution to this thread in terms of making the appropriate offering to the customer. Like you, I am becoming more and more a fan of building a relationship rather than selling a job.

 

[Brian]

The orginal question was which contractor I would hire. I would hire the one who is offering the values I need at that time.

Scott and Mack, you both seem to be realizing that the values the customer needs will vary. I was often locked into the "we only do 2 coats" thinking, but it isn't always what the customer needs.

Anyhow, you both make good points and I agree. It is ultimately all about the customer.

Brian Phillips

 

[vermontpainter]

It is ultimately all about the customer.

Brian Phillips

Brian

Yet another case of something dreadfully simple that I need to remind myself of from time to time. Its so easy to get caught up in the "this is the best way to do it" mentality. I bet alot of us lose jobs when we lose sight of the fact that it is mostly about the customer.

 

[kanadaeh]

I recently begin asking more questions and listening to the replies during my estimates. Before this I would simply assume everyone was looking for the same paint job but I was not closing near enough jobs. I now ask what type of budget they have. I also ask if they received other quotes what was included in the other painting contractors scope of work and I would not ask or even care what the other price was. I was surprised at how many painters would just phone in a price but did not bother to give a detailed estimate. There were some cases I could even up sell because of this. I will now work with clients and see if we can complete a project within their budget. There are many creative ways to do this.
A funny job comes to mind:
I quote a job painting 3 rooms and due to the homeowners budget, he is a bit of a handyman and decides to do the minor patchwork himself. I quote paint only and we set a date. When we go in to paint I send my newly hired 20 yr experienced painter in to do the job. We arrive and the homeowner does not have the patchwork complete. I ask him if he would like us to complete it for the cost we previously discussed and he said no, paint it the way it is. My painter hears this whole conversation. I leave my painter to begin and I return later. My painter went ahead and patched the areas with mud and was trying to dry them with a hair dryer. I ask him if he was told to patch he says no. He said there was no way you could paint them walls without patching. You don't want to put your name on that work. We argue back and forth finally I told him, the homeowner did not want to pay for patchwork and I don't run a charity so I can not pay for it and seeing how the mud is still wet you can't paint the walls, you might as well go home. I guess you donated your morning for free. He was let go the next day. He has since tried to start his own painting biz but things did not work out.

 

[kanadaeh]

To answer the original question about the plumber and electrician, I would agree with Brian. It depends on what I'm hiring for.

 

[GMack]

Brian

Yet another case of something dreadfully simple that I need to remind myself of from time to time. Its so easy to get caught up in the "this is the best way to do it" mentality. I bet alot of us lose jobs when we lose sight of the fact that it is mostly about the customer.

It's especially hard not to get caught up in the pursuit of perfection when the majority of your customers are all about it.