[vermontpainter]

The second biggest fallacy in the marketing of paint products lately - and this is second only to the variety of sheens offered for interior paints, with eggshell being promoted as "scrubbable" - is the concept of the low temperature exterior paint.

Today I applied spar varnish to three mahogany thresholds. Each one had a slightly different sun exposure and I was applying second coats, 24 hours after I had done the first coats. One of the three was totally in the shade this morning and then gets baked all afternoon in the sun. The other two were in the morning sun and hot to the touch. Real hot.

Knowing that the one in the shade was going to be there for a while, I thought I could at least sand and vacuum the other two and have them ready for when the sun went past them. Wrong. I couldn't even sand them because they were so hot that they acted sticky and the sand pad wouldnt even float over them. I then took a large pallet and hung a dropcloth over it to create a sunblock. 15 minutes later they were both cooled down enough to sand prep and finish.

As I brushed out all 3, I started thinking about temp extremes and exterior painting. Yes, the manufacturers can create a paint product that can perform chemically at 35 degrees or below.

What they cannot do is make a paint smart enough to convince substrates to be open to receiving finishes at those temperatures.

This whole low temp paint thing does two things. One, it misleads the consumer by making them think that the house can be done in December. And two, it gives some painters a great excuse to throw on some flannel and stay right out there til Christmas. Hey, its within manufacturers spec. Flies in the face of all common sense, but the manufacturers say we can. Please, for the love of God, dont buy the low temp paints, and do educate your customers about this misleading stroke of marketing brilliance and corporate greed. Thank you.

 

[Formulator]

As I brushed out all 3, I started thinking about temp extremes and exterior painting. Yes, the manufacturers can create a paint product that can perform chemically at 35 degrees or below.

What they cannot do is make a paint smart enough to convince substrates to be open to receiving finishes at those temperatures.

This whole low temp paint thing does two things. One, it misleads the consumer by making them think that the house can be done in December. And two, it gives some painters a great excuse to throw on some flannel and stay right out there til Christmas. Hey, its within manufacturers spec. Flies in the face of all common sense, but the manufacturers say we can. Please, for the love of God, dont buy the low temp paints, and do educate your customers about this misleading stroke of marketing brilliance and corporate greed. Thank you.

I have never looked at a low temp formula or anything like that, but I would think it would be possible to make a decent one.

This is just a guess so don't blast me to smithereens if I'm wrong:
I would find a good self-crosslinking resin and then pump it up with some solvent and glycols, give it a lot of substrate wetting helpers and possibly some fluorosurfactant to really help it dig in (fluorosurfactant is around 50 dollars a pound... they don't like us to use the stuff). Yes, the crosslinking will be hindered by the temperature, but it should still work.


That was just a guess though.

 

[tsunamicontract]

Hmm, good thinking today Scott. Ok so what if you prime something at say 50 degrees (usually the specs for primer). The substrate has already accepted the coating and you let it cure properly. Would it not be fine to paint a primed substrate with night time temps of 35 degrees (keep in mind the temp ratings are the minimum for for the cure time- 24 or 48 hours)?

 

[MAK-Deco]

Thats why I still do not go beyond October I still have not bought into the 35 degree thing...

 

[HomeGuardPaints]

Well I had guys out in gloves and long johns last year, so I'll tell you if any of those houses fail prematurely, until then "We Paint until ice forms".

 

[vermontpainter]

Hmm, good thinking today Scott. Ok so what if you prime something at say 50 degrees (usually the specs for primer). The substrate has already accepted the coating and you let it cure properly. Would it not be fine to paint a primed substrate with night time temps of 35 degrees (keep in mind the temp ratings are the minimum for for the cure time- 24 or 48 hours)?

I have never felt it worth the risk in the late season. Primarily because I appreciate the dynamics of wood expansion and contraction as it relates to temperature and humidity changes, especially with the change of seasons here in new england.

To answer your question, it doesnt matter if you put primer on at 50 degrees, when the temperature is in the 30's the primer does not stop the substrate, which I should specify to be most usually organic (wood), from reacting. Its one of those situations where it might work and it might not. I would experiment with it on my own house (and I have), but not on a customers.

Moral of the story, if your marketing and sales strategies are working, there is no reason to push the exterior envelope.

 

[Brian]

My first reaction to this was, who would even think of painting outside if it was below 50?

I think this illustrates the differences we face. In Houston, our average high in January is something like 65. I don't think we got below freezing last winter at my house. Our low at this time of the year is typically in the 70s.

I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but there are real, and significant, differences across the country. What is common in one area is absolutely foreign in another. And each presents different challenges.

When I read about some of the challenges some of you face, I shake my head and think I could never deal with it.

Brian Phillips

 

[NEPS.US]

I've only done three exteriors this year...............That's how much I market interior NC and commercial work.

 

[Wolverine]

I have never looked at a low temp formula or anything like that, but I would think it would be possible to make a decent one.

This is just a guess so don't blast me to smithereens if I'm wrong:
I would find a good self-crosslinking resin and then pump it up with some solvent and glycols, give it a lot of substrate wetting helpers and possibly some fluorosurfactant to really help it dig in (fluorosurfactant is around 50 dollars a pound... they don't like us to use the stuff). Yes, the crosslinking will be hindered by the temperature, but it should still work.


That was just a guess though.

This is pretty much dead on... There is also a good point about the substrate being able to accept such a coating. The biggest problem is that when construction products are cold the pores are smaller. When they get warm and expand it is easier for the binders in the coating to fill and penetrate them. The addition of fluorosurfactants lower the surface tension of the liquid to help fill the pores BUT... you still have small pores.

SO... in addition to all of that... I might call Larry Cohen at Chartwell and throw a little specialty adhesion promoter in that too! Also, be sure that the system is flexibilized to reduce coating stress when it gets hot.

 

[Formulator]

SO... in addition to all of that... I might call Larry Cohen at Chartwell and throw a little specialty adhesion promoter in that too! Also, be sure that the system is flexibilized to reduce coating stress when it gets hot.

HAHAHA... Larry keeps calling me and I sent him a gallon blank last week to work on once he signed the secrecy agreement. He's a nice guy and one of the first people I talked to since joining Rust-Oleum. I always felt bad because he would keep following up with me and it took about 8 months to get to a point where I could send him a blank sample.

 

[NACE]

One of the tools I keep for inspections is an Infra Red Surface Temperature Thermometer. They are fairly inexpensive and can tell you if you are within manufacturers recommendations and specifications. Many painters believe that since it is 85 degrees F outside, that it is acceptable to paint, if you measure the surface temp, it may be 130 degrees and out of spec. I agree that when low temp coatings hit the market, the formulations contained a lager amount of glycols. As a result, the film is softer, took longer to cure, and would pick up dirt and mildew quicker. As Formulator and Wolverine have said, there are ways to improve performance in lower temps without effecting quality too much, and not adding VOC like glycols. That adds RMC to paint that gets past to the end user. We all know how we feel about higher paint prices. Again, if the air temperature is 35 degrees F, it does not mean the surface temperature is the same. How long does the surface temp stay at that level, and how long does the film need to dry before the curing cycle is effected? I always say that surface and air must be 40 to 90 degrees with relative humidity at 70% or less and dew point must be 5 degrees greater than the surface temperature AND IMPROVING. This is the error of paint companies, to market products that act as Jesus Christ in a can, but in reality not teaching how to interpret what specifications are, and painting within the guide lines of the TDS. Homeowners and contractors to some degree don't read the label, and interpret what they want to believe on the label to make their project the least painful.

 

[Formulator]

I brought up this subject with my boss at work today as a possible candidate for a project for next year. He says "We already have that!" It's the Rust-Oleum 3700 series paints. 3792 is the white and he says it will work down to 35 degrees.

A word about this paint. I LOVE that paint. It's probably the most underrated product that we have I think. It dries super hard and tough REALLY fast at regular temperatures. I haven't used it at low temperatures, but he claims it works! He also created the polymer and the formula for it I believe and he is VERY good at what he does.

 

[Wolverine]

Carter, what is the elongation? The main problem I see with low temp paints is that the substrate is constricted when it is cold and then expands when it is warm. Obviously, this can cause internal stress. Then, if the pores are closed (because it is constricted) you get less adhesion.

Ya got some Chartwell in there? lol... Sorry... couldn't help it... OH... and you better tell Larry he owes me some commission if he sells you... lol...

 

[vermontpainter]

The main problem I see with low temp paints is that the substrate is constricted when it is cold and then expands when it is warm. Obviously, this can cause internal stress. Then, if the pores are closed (because it is constricted) you get less adhesion. quote]

This is the point that takes me about 1000 words to communicate and causes that vein in my forehead to throb and customers to get that far away look in their eyes.

I will print this out and pin up above my monitor and memorize it. This Fall, I will use it alot. Thanks.

 

[tsunamicontract]

right Carter this was Scotts point, that just because the paint is ready for the temps, the substrate often is not.

 

[Formulator]

Right right right. I just kind of revisited this today without reading back through. I'm just too tired to communicate and should go to bed.. like right now... before I say anything more silly.

See.. I was going to say something in this space, but my brain is frying it would have been even dumber... oh well. Night guys!

 

[boosti]

Can SW Superpaint be applied at 26 degrees in the snow?

click here for the answer...

...just following orders from my former employer...

P.S. I now work for myself and would never do that!:no:

 

[boosti]

One of the tools I keep for inspections is an Infra Red Surface Temperature Thermometer. They are fairly inexpensive and can tell you if you are within manufacturers recommendations and specifications.

Seriously, this is a very clever tool....might also intrigue and inform an inquisitive HO.

 

[JTP]

I don't care what the label says--can't read em anyway. After I get done pouring out of the can, the print is obliterated. Don't you hate it when you need the label information and it's got 30 mils of paint covering what you should have known before you opened the can?

JTP

 

[JTP]

BTW-- I don't do any outside work past the second week of October.

JTP