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Dunno Pac....sprayed latex out of FF tips for years. The last thing I would ever spray out of an airless is conversion varnish. The next to thing would be stain. The thing about spraying latex out of a fine finish is you wont have that much material waste and you're able to adjust the fan pattern a little better. Can't think of one time I've used a .015 on base boards, trim, cabinets, doors....just about anything I want a nice smooth finish on.
 

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The reason they don't sell a 317 fine finish tip is because fine finish tips are NOT for latex paints. Or acrylics. Or most alkyds. They are for FINE FINISHES as in lacquers, conversion varnish, stains, etc. The fact that painters across the country use them for latex/acrylic paints is because of SW and their not being able to hire/keep any salespeople that know squat about spraying. Of course there are some SW salepeople that know this, but the fact that they (among other companies) have for the last twenty years just continued to sell FF tips for the incorrect products just proves my point. Too much needed information is falling through the cracks just to sell the customer what they think they need. Every single time i hear someone say their airless is "spitting" it is because the orifice they are using is the wrong size. EVERY SINGLE TIME!



Lets look at the list of companies who say in their data sheets and product information that an orifice of at least .015 is required for spraying latex/acrylic architectural finishes, shall we?



SW

PPG

Ben Moore

Valspar

Behr

Kelly Moore

Pratt & Lambert

California

and on and on including;



Graco

Wagner

Spratech

Airlessco

Binks

Devilbiss



Should i continue?



Not one of them has ever nor will ever recommend using a "fine finish" tip with an orifice smaller than .015 to spray an architectural paint. Fine finishes yes. Durapoxy is NOT considered to be a fine finish.



Ok rant over. Time for coffee.


You are at least partially incorrect.
From the top of your list, SW recommends;
“Tip for fine finishing.................... .011" for Pro Classic.

https://www.sherwin-williams.com/document/PDS/en/035777049396/

And PPG specs for Breakthrough say;

“....tip 0.009” - 0.013”. Best results are achieved using a fine finish tip.”

https://sweets.construction.com/swts_content_files/22834/632228.pdf

I do get what you’re saying. A few years ago when FF tips were becoming so popular I found it concerning that nearly all trim paint specs called for a .15.

Times and equipment have changed though and the specs are catching up. Can you site any data that specifically states that FF tips are not to be used with acrylic trim paints? Kinda seems like you’re making an inference based on outdated spec sheets.

Current specs for BM Advance give a tip size range of 11-15, 15 being the max not the min.

http://www2.benjaminmoore.com/Downl...92 TDS US OKF.PDF&propertyName=multidatasheet[0].data_sheet_file_en_US


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Y’all have to explain to me how a certain tip could cause a spit.

I’ve no doubt that a smaller tip exacerbates the problem of the needle not seating correctly. You aren’t going to notice that tiny spit as much with a 517 while spraying a ceiling as you are with a 310 spraying a door.

If we’re defining ‘spit as meaning an extra blob of paint that comes out right before and/or after your fan is engaged then, barring special circumstances like build up on or inside the guard, that can only come from one place. There is only one thing in a spray gun controlling the flow of material, the needle and how well it seats.

All the tip does is atomize the material, has no effect on the flow. Given that fact, I don’t see how a tip could be said to be causing that phenomenon. Making it worse perhaps.

Maybe I’m missing something. Maybe you guys are talking about some kind of build up in the guard that only happens with FF tips or something.


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As I’ve already mentioned, I use a 310 ffllp for spraying all sorts of waterbased enamels and I’m very pleased with the results. Here is one of eight doors I just finished up on Monday. Used Pro-Classic satin.
 

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MADE YA LOOK THOUGH DIDN'T I? My POINT is that not all paints should be used with a fine finish tip, regardless of what the common belief is. There are many, many reasons why certain paints shouldn't be used with an orifice that small, and not all of them are as readily apparent as you would think. A simple internet search of a particular products data sheet will show what size tips are recommended for any paint.

And i knew Breakthrough would come up! I sold Breakthrough shortly after it was brought on the market by Vanex. It was developed as a replacement for the pigmented lacquers that were common for finishing oem cabinets and furniture in lo voc areas. It was designed from the beginning to be applied as close as possible to the pigmented lacquers, therefore the pigments and resins used are suitable for use with a fine finish tip.


AND of course you CAN use just about any paint with a fine finish tip IF you thin it enough. But do you really think that is a good idea? Nope.

here are a few problems i have seen due to too small of an orifice being used;
spitting
plugging tips
eroding of tips and destroying spray pattern
over heating of paint causing dry spray.
shearing of resin causing;
resin curing too slow
resin curing too fast
resin not curing at all
resin too brittle when cured
resin cracking when cured
Inadequate film build causing premature failure
and on and on.

There is a reason why the first thing a qualified paint sale rep will ask when a customer has a spraying issue is "what size tip are you using". It's because most spray issues are caused by people using too small of tip.

Remember, contrary to common belief, the term "fine finish" does NOT mean the tip will provide a "fine finish" regardless of what paint is used. Rather the term "fine finish (FF)" means that that tip is intended to be used with products DESIGNED to be used for fine finishing.
 

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MADE YA LOOK THOUGH DIDN'T I? My POINT is that not all paints should be used with a fine finish tip, regardless of what the common belief is. There are many, many reasons why certain paints shouldn't be used with an orifice that small, and not all of them are as readily apparent as you would think. A simple internet search of a particular products data sheet will show what size tips are recommended for any paint.

And i knew Breakthrough would come up! I sold Breakthrough shortly after it was brought on the market by Vanex. It was developed as a replacement for the pigmented lacquers that were common for finishing oem cabinets and furniture in lo voc areas. It was designed from the beginning to be applied as close as possible to the pigmented lacquers, therefore the pigments and resins used are suitable for use with a fine finish tip.


AND of course you CAN use just about any paint with a fine finish tip IF you thin it enough. But do you really think that is a good idea? Nope.

here are a few problems i have seen due to too small of an orifice being used;
spitting
plugging tips
eroding of tips and destroying spray pattern
over heating of paint causing dry spray.
shearing of resin causing;
resin curing too slow
resin curing too fast
resin not curing at all
resin too brittle when cured
resin cracking when cured
Inadequate film build causing premature failure
and on and on.

There is a reason why the first thing a qualified paint sale rep will ask when a customer has a spraying issue is "what size tip are you using". It's because most spray issues are caused by people using too small of tip.

Remember, contrary to common belief, the term "fine finish" does NOT mean the tip will provide a "fine finish" regardless of what paint is used. Rather the term "fine finish (FF)" means that that tip is intended to be used with products DESIGNED to be used for fine finishing.
Well no, though it did make me post the picture and write the response.
 

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PAC, just curious. How do you know all of those issues you listed were caused by a small tip size being used? Seems to me that most of those would require a quite extensive, detailed, and technical exploration to determine what might have caused them - or if tip size was the issue. What process did you use to determine that too small a tip caused all those?
 

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PAC, I really appreciate your input/knowledge about Fine Finish tips and orifice recommendations. As a painter I’m not provided much info beyond what’s provided in the MFG’s data sheets, so I find this to be a very interesting discussion.

Graco and Titan are both pushing low-pressure tips very hard and one of the big reason I’ve been told by reps of both companies is because it increases the transfer efficiency rate. Based on what you’re saying, these tips wouldn’t be recommended with the vast major of architectural Coatings, especially exterior Coatings?

Although I try to abide by the orifice sizes the MFG’s spec sheets provide, there are time when I just can’t use a 215 or 317. What are we to do in these situations?


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FFLP Tips

No disrespect to anyone here, but I think this thread has now shifted to experiences based on recommendations versus hands-on, day-in and day-out experience. In the last 2 months I've used FFLP tips for conversion varnish, BM's Natura, KM's Durapoxy, and today I'm shooting 20 full size doors with SW's Waterbased Precat Epoxy...just to name a few. To date, I've not had a single problem using the FFLP tips. Since I heat all my paints, I don't ever reduce more than 5-10%, if I reduce at all. I've got my WFT gauge at the ready and I verify I'm able to apply to proper mil spec. Though I strain my paint, I've not noticed excessive clogging due to using a smaller orifice than what the data sheet suggests. No spitting either...at least no measurable difference between spits from using a smaller orifice vs. larger.

About the only thing I try to recognize is that there could, (and probably will), be a slight sheen difference between spraying with the FFLP tips and then going back to touch-up with a brush at a later date, so I spray off maybe half of a quart of product to eliminate this issue.

I think that with the advent of FFLP tips, the data sheets should and probably will need to be revised.
 

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No disrespect to anyone here, but I think this thread has now shifted to experiences based on recommendations versus hands-on, day-in and day-out experience. In the last 2 months I've used FFLP tips for conversion varnish, BM's Natura, KM's Durapoxy, and today I'm shooting 20 full size doors with SW's Waterbased Precat Epoxy...just to name a few. To date, I've not had a single problem using the FFLP tips. Since I heat all my paints, I don't ever reduce more than 5-10%, if I reduce at all. I've got my WFT gauge at the ready and I verify I'm able to apply to proper mil spec. Though I strain my paint, I've not noticed excessive clogging due to using a smaller orifice than what the data sheet suggests. No spitting either...at least no measurable difference between spits from using a smaller orifice vs. larger.

About the only thing I try to recognize is that there could, (and probably will), be a slight sheen difference between spraying with the FFLP tips and then going back to touch-up with a brush at a later date, so I spray off maybe half of a quart of product to eliminate this issue.

I think that with the advent of FFLP tips, the data sheets should and probably will need to be revised.
Though I may not have worked with some of those products you’ve mentioned, those I have sprayed (Pro-classic, Pro- Industrial, KM’s Dura-Poxy) have all sprayed great using my FFLP tip. Not saying I don’t get the occasional spit, but like you, nothing more than with a regular FF tip. Thinning products according to specs, straining paint, and completing a spray pass off the surface can all help towards achieving a quality spray session.
 
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I am convinced that spitting is because of the needle not seating propperly and is time to rebuild the gun, Gregplus did mention using extensions and I agree to a point as whenever I use an extension I get spitting but goes away almost entirely after some use but the longer the extension the worse spitting is.

Think of it like this, you release the trigger and if it does not seal immediately some material is going to get past.
I own about 7 guns from titan and Graco and 5 of them would heavily spit or at times not seat at all for several seconds forcing me to point the gun in a direction away from the surfaces I was painting.
I spent a good 2 hours breaking down the guns soaking and scrubbing the reassembling and adjusting and got 3 of the 5 to work perfect again, the two spit at unacceptable levels and need rebuilt but compared to not shutting off was much better.

Gunk can accumulate where the needle seats or a slight adjustment needs to be made, spits are not normal and have nothing to do with the spray tip as some one may have mentioned.
This product may help some people, I purchased one and felt it was cheap feeling and may not be a one size fits all as it claims, I never tried it for spitting but does make sense.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Repair-Kit...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
 

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Ask me again why I don't spray (much).
 

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Maybe because you've not had a job where there were 150-200 new cabinet doors to be primed and painted?


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I did say I don't spray "MUCH", That aside, I would never take a job involving 150-200 cabinet doors. A body needs to know their limitations! I have nowhere I could put that much spray work.
 

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ff tips

I agree with pacster that you need a larger orifice size. I always have told ppl to use at least a 312 for latex. Thinning latex paint should always always be a LAST resort!! When you double atomize paint, heavy body paints just can't make it well through a 10 orifice.
:smile:
 

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Count me in with the group that spitting has nothing to do with tip size. That's a needle and seat problem. Now there can be issues with using too small of a tip size, but spitting is not one of them.

Now, to correlate this to another active thread, spray gun spitting can lead to the most godawful cussing ever heard on a jobsite. Which is why Jennifer doesn't spray much....she can't cuss well enough. :devil3:
 

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Yep. I agree. I use a 308ff on my cabinets with Advance, with fantastic results. No problems. through my Graco 490. That being said, my gun always spits with any size tip, but only at pull and release, which I concour is most likely a gun problem, gonna up to a larger filter too..
 

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I am convinced that spitting is because of the needle not seating propperly and is time to rebuild the gun, Gregplus did mention using extensions and I agree to a point as whenever I use an extension I get spitting but goes away almost entirely after some use but the longer the extension the worse spitting is.

Think of it like this, you release the trigger and if it does not seal immediately some material is going to get past.
I own about 7 guns from titan and Graco and 5 of them would heavily spit or at times not seat at all for several seconds forcing me to point the gun in a direction away from the surfaces I was painting.
I spent a good 2 hours breaking down the guns soaking and scrubbing the reassembling and adjusting and got 3 of the 5 to work perfect again, the two spit at unacceptable levels and need rebuilt but compared to not shutting off was much better.

Gunk can accumulate where the needle seats or a slight adjustment needs to be made, spits are not normal and have nothing to do with the spray tip as some one may have mentioned.
This product may help some people, I purchased one and felt it was cheap feeling and may not be a one size fits all as it claims, I never tried it for spitting but does make sense.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Repair-Kit...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
I agree. Whenever one of my guns starts to spit I send it in to get repacked. I use the silver plus guns from Graco and they last forever compared to the contractor gun. The silvers don't have a strainer so you have to be very careful to strain your coating well.

http://www.graco.com/za/en/products/contractor/silver-plus-gun.html

Paint clogs are different than spitting. That may be caused by a sprayer that has not been cleaned or stored properly or from not straining your paint well enough.

If you are using your sprayer for all kinds of coatings like lacquer you really have to clean it out excessively well. Get a separate hose and gun for lacquer. Even then, the internal parts could be contaminated if not cleaned properly. That's why most painters have a separate rig for lacquer.

Tips have zero to do with spitting.
 

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I’ve sprayed latex acrylic alkyd oil everything BUT stain all without thinning with my .410 and never had a problem I know those companies like to give recommendations about what office size to use and that’s great and all. However it’s not practical when ACTUALLY painting if I sprayed any sort of trim, cabinet woodwork with a .015 or higher that would result in an absolute disaster. Runs everywhere, overspray everywhere.
 
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