[AlexWhite532]

I'm trying to get a good consensus on if it's necessary to ALWAYS take cabinet doors and drawers off and spray them, or are there certain times where leaving them on and brushing/rolling will do just fine. Some of the push back I've gotten from my team is they don't think it's necessary to always take them off and remove all the hardware. They say, it's a pain to recalibrate the hinges and the door handles can go back on crooked; and lastly that the prep for spraying makes the job take WAY longer than it needs to take. Any and all thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[fromthenorthwest]

Try labeling each hinge. For example on the first door, the label will be 1a for the top hinge and 1b for the bottom hinge. We'll wrap each hinge in blue tape and then write the label in sharpie. Then just leave the hinges in the box they belong to so they don't get lost. Use sandwich baggies to keep all the different types of screws in. The machine screws that go into the doors and the wood screws that go into the boxes.

The only scenario that I can think of that wouldn't call for removing the doors is a cheapo little rental cleanup job where the hardware is already all painted. Masking is definitely extensive for spraying, but when you do all that masking you can get a coat on everything very quickly, and it will look better than a rolled finish.

Painting cabinets is definitely not cheap but the alternative for most customers is new cabinets, so a lot of them are more than happy to pay to do it right.

Good luck! They are pain to figure out, but once you do a few of them you will realize they are great jobs. Easy to estimate and will keep you and your crews busy in the winter time.

 

[celicaxx]

I think like most things in painting it honestly is more about the budget for the job and the expectations. If you're doing cabinets in a lower end rental, some commercial/institutional settings (ie, hospitals, nursing homes, hotels) then brushing and rolling and leaving the doors on is probably adequate or even preferable from the owner just wanting stuff back in service as fast as possible, if you're doing it in a 500K house, then it's not acceptable imo.

PPG had a video with Breakthrough on Youtube of people painting cabinets with it brushing and rolling, but I think since then they edited it out since the lower VOC formulation isn't quite as strong as it used to be. It was sort of meant for that scenario as it levels well and is thin, but dries very quickly, and doesn't stick to itself, so you could close doors after 20 minutes. Also bonds well so if your surface doesn't have tannin bleed issues you could possibly avoid priming as long as it was a clean surface. Product kinda meant exactly for the above commercial sort of scenario above. I think BM Command and maybe Scuff-X are also kind of meant for those commercial scenarios, too.

A compromise a lot of people end up doing is brushing and rolling the actual cabinets, and spraying the doors. Then you save setup time from not having to mask the entire kitchen, and the doors which people look at most closely are still sprayed. Use a foam roller, microfiber, or Wooster Red Feather (probably the most sprayed looking finish) cover to look closest to sprayed. This might also end up faster actually counting the hours time-wise as cutting around hinges and then inevitably cleaning them up, or masking everything and cutting it with a razor/etc, I think would take more time than just taking the doors off and spraying them.

EDIT:

Here is the PPG commercial of brushing and rolling cabinets, oddly hard to find on Youtube now. As you can see, it is brushed and rolled, but note they keep saying "Facility" and "unit."

 

[Joe67]

The labeling is the key to successful R&R as @fromthenorthwest noted. Also as noted there is never an ALWAYS. If I'm redoing cabs, half the time the hardware is already hosed. But I usually take it off anyway and even try to clean it up. And I very often brush and roll. With the right technique and product it works out great.

Short answer is just that it depends, but if if the best option is to remove hardware label it all.

 

[finishesbykevyn]

If your guys can't figure out how to put a door handle back on, you should tell them to get a new career. It may seem tedious to do all that work, but trust me, it is the best way, always. Unless like others have said, it's a total dive with the hardware already painted over. All the same, I would be talking them into getting new hardware. Why go through the trouble and expense of painting and not replace a $2.50 hinge?

 

[AlexWhite532]

Thank you all!! I guess the consensus I'm looking for is, leaving the doors and drawers on is usually (only?) for less expensive "turn-and-burn" types of jobs; and every other job, the doors and drawers should be taken off and sprayed using a microfiber or velour roller on the cabinet box. The only caveat being...it depends!

Would that sum it up?

 

[Joe67]

Thank you all!! I guess the consensus I'm looking for is, leaving the doors and drawers on is usually (only?) for less expensive "turn-and-burn" types of jobs; and every other job, the doors and drawers should be taken off and sprayed using a microfiber or velour roller on the cabinet box. The only caveat being...it depends!

Would that sum it up?

I'd say yes, that about sums it up. Although there are also times when it would make sense to skip getting into a sprayer at all. But painting around hardware is a reasonably terrible idea most of the time.

 

[cocomonkeynuts]

Do the opposite of this guy and you'll be good:

 

[Holland]

Do the opposite of this guy and you'll be good:

Watching that video gave me knots in my stomach.

I'm trying to get a good consensus on if it's necessary to ALWAYS take cabinet doors and drawers off and spray them, or are there certain times where leaving them on and brushing/rolling will do just fine. Some of the push back I've gotten from my team is they don't think it's necessary to always take them off and remove all the hardware. They say, it's a pain to recalibrate the hinges and the door handles can go back on crooked; and lastly that the prep for spraying makes the job take WAY longer than it needs to take. Any and all thoughts will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

Agree with others. Almost always remove hardware, label, and re-install.

-we baggy the hinges and leave them on-site in the specific doors they came from. A,B,C and 1,2,3, etc... and we marker the raw wood behind the hinges where its not visible, and then throw a piece of tape over that so it doesn't get painted.

-we remove the handles and pulls in the shop, and pop them in a bucket labelled with the Job name, and take it with us to the job site when we re-install.

 

[celicaxx]

Thank you all!! I guess the consensus I'm looking for is, leaving the doors and drawers on is usually (only?) for less expensive "turn-and-burn" types of jobs; and every other job, the doors and drawers should be taken off and sprayed using a microfiber or velour roller on the cabinet box. The only caveat being...it depends!

Would that sum it up?

Ideally the cabinet box would be sprayed, too.

Spraying everything could end up more efficient, if you have an entirely empty job in a reno or new construction.

You said in a prior thread you're an estimator, what you really need to do (learned this from Jack Pauhl, but admittedly never kept perfect logs, just kinda remembered stuff in my head) is try to compare and contrast similar projects using different methods, and count the hours it takes doing it one way or another, and count how many problems you have and how good or bad the end result is, then you really know personally what it takes you to do something. For myself as an example, I found I am faster with plastic or paper everywhere first, masking baseboards to the floor first in all the rooms, and not moving around drop cloths back and forth, even though it seems slower because you're spending often a couple hours in setup, but then once you're setup you're flying. Some people might disagree and be faster with only drops and moving them around, but it's important to test it out and see what you actually get done in X hours.

To me what seems most efficient is spraying anything "trim" (including cabinets) in most scenarios in an unoccupied house or remodel scenario where people aren't trying to use the room soon and it's 100% empty. Then you can leave your prep up for spraying as long as you feel like, have everything masked perfectly, floors covered perfectly, etc. Where spraying is a problem is in an occupied scenario where say, you have a bedroom full of toys and a bed in it, and about 3 feet or less between all the stuff and the walls, and people want to sleep in it the next day or that night, then you pretty much just can't spray as the limitation is the stuff in the room. So the same would apply to kitchens as well, if they want a fast return to service or even cooking in it lightly between coats of primer/etc, there's no way you can mask off everything for spraying and really deliver that.

That's another big problem in painting, is that you can do a PERFECT job but if a customer is too inconvenienced and disrupted by the process they will hate it more than if you do mediocre work but you make them feel good and comfortable during the process, at least for occupied residential jobs.

 

[finishesbykevyn]

Watching that video gave me knots in my stomach.



Agree with others. Almost always remove hardware, label, and re-install.

-we baggy the hinges and leave them on-site in the specific doors they came from. A,B,C and 1,2,3, etc... and we marker the raw wood behind the hinges where its not visible, and then throw a piece of tape over that so it doesn't get painted.

-we remove the handles and pulls in the shop, and pop them in a bucket labelled with the Job name, and take it with us to the job site when we re-install.

View attachment 113099

View attachment 113100

That's pretty much what we do, minus a separate baggy for every hinge. That's alot of baggy's? Also we take handles off on site, as they stack better in the truck and don't have to worry about loosing them or forgetting them. Same with any glass doors. Leave the glass on site. Amazing that buddy was going to roll birch doors around Euro hinges on what looks like a pretty nice kitchen!

 

[Joe67]

Do the opposite of this guy and you'll be good:

I remember when that video first circulated on the board. It's obvious that the guy is a skeevy, dishonest dud - the kind that gives contractors of all kinds a bad name. But I also think there is more to the backstory - as in probably aspects where the HO was inserting himself in ways that he didn't belong. "You're taking YOUR paint...You can keep YOUR paint..." he says at one point. I'm thinking the HO had things in mind that the contractor didn't, and the contractor figured "fine I'll do it your way" and used that as an excuse to take it in the wrong direction.

One of the unfortunate things of the era is just that really bad contractors - like that one - give all of us a bad name. So then many clients decide to be the "police" of things they are not qualified to police - get all sorts of weird ideas from internet searches, and then decide to suddenly be experts and know how we're supposed to do things better than we do. While it's obvious that the contractor in the video is sleazy, the culminating "flip out" also may have also been a "last straw" moment. I'd hold out for 50/50 HO/contractor responsibility.

I'm reminded of a remodel job I once had - a known problem client (OCD-ish) - where there was a really badly planned out drywall to tile shower seam. Someone had done a horrible job trying to patch it in with some material or another, so I went about picking it back apart to see what could be done to pretty it up.

The HO, looking over my shoulder, got very aggravated as HE had done the horrible job of trying to patch it in. I calmly talked him back down and explained that it was my job to do the right things there and that I deal with such things all of the time. I assured him that I would make it right - the job the painter: to make everyone else look good even if they suck.

But my point is that my first gut reaction was to want to tell him to F off and leave the job site. Like I need that sh** - some know nothing dumb-a** telling me what to do with my work? Luckily he figured out in short order that I was, in fact, better at it all than he, and he left me alone to do the work.

Not equating that with the video as my situation was 100/0 not 50/50.

 

[cocomonkeynuts]

I remember when that video first circulated on the board. It's obvious that the guy is a skeevy, dishonest dud - the kind that gives contractors of all kinds a bad name. But I also think there is more to the backstory - as in probably aspects where the HO was inserting himself in ways that he didn't belong. "You're taking YOUR paint...You can keep YOUR paint..." he says at one point. I'm thinking the HO had things in mind that the contractor didn't, and the contractor figured "fine I'll do it your way" and used that as an excuse to take it in the wrong direction.

One of the unfortunate things of the era is just that really bad contractors - like that one - give all of us a bad name. So then many clients decide to be the "police" of things they are not qualified to police - get all sorts of weird ideas from internet searches, and then decide to suddenly be experts and know how we're supposed to do things better than we do. While it's obvious that the contractor in the video is sleazy, the culminating "flip out" also may have also been a "last straw" moment. I'd hold out for 50/50 HO/contractor responsibility.

I'm reminded of a remodel job I once had - a known problem client (OCD-ish) - where there was a really badly planned out drywall to tile shower seam. Someone had done a horrible job trying to patch it in with some material or another, so I went about picking it back apart to see what could be done to pretty it up.

The HO, looking over my shoulder, got very aggravated as HE had done the horrible job of trying to patch it in. I calmly talked him back down and explained that it was my job to do the right things there and that I deal with such things all of the time. I assured him that I would make it right - the job the painter: to make everyone else look good even if they suck.

But my point is that my first gut reaction was to want to tell him to F off and leave the job site. Like I need that sh** - some know nothing dumb-a** telling me what to do with my work? Luckily he figured out in short order that I was, in fact, better at it all than he, and he left me alone to do the work.

Not equating that with the video as my situation was 100/0 not 50/50.

Always two sides to a story but if someone clearly says they are going to clean and sand then that's what hes paying for. Any DIY can take a foam hot dog and paint cabinets in place. He probably would have painted right over the hardware too.

We did a floor maybe two years ago with poly and had to chase the HO out of the house because he was literally standing behind us watching and getting in the way of the pole

 

[Holland]

Ideally the cabinet box would be sprayed, too.

Spraying everything could end up more efficient, if you have an entirely empty job in a reno or new construction.

You said in a prior thread you're an estimator, what you really need to do (learned this from Jack Pauhl, but admittedly never kept perfect logs, just kinda remembered stuff in my head) is try to compare and contrast similar projects using different methods, and count the hours it takes doing it one way or another, and count how many problems you have and how good or bad the end result is, then you really know personally what it takes you to do something. For myself as an example, I found I am faster with plastic or paper everywhere first, masking baseboards to the floor first in all the rooms, and not moving around drop cloths back and forth, even though it seems slower because you're spending often a couple hours in setup, but then once you're setup you're flying. Some people might disagree and be faster with only drops and moving them around, but it's important to test it out and see what you actually get done in X hours.

To me what seems most efficient is spraying anything "trim" (including cabinets) in most scenarios in an unoccupied house or remodel scenario where people aren't trying to use the room soon and it's 100% empty. Then you can leave your prep up for spraying as long as you feel like, have everything masked perfectly, floors covered perfectly, etc. Where spraying is a problem is in an occupied scenario where say, you have a bedroom full of toys and a bed in it, and about 3 feet or less between all the stuff and the walls, and people want to sleep in it the next day or that night, then you pretty much just can't spray as the limitation is the stuff in the room. So the same would apply to kitchens as well, if they want a fast return to service or even cooking in it lightly between coats of primer/etc, there's no way you can mask off everything for spraying and really deliver that.

That's another big problem in painting, is that you can do a PERFECT job but if a customer is too inconvenienced and disrupted by the process they will hate it more than if you do mediocre work but you make them feel good and comfortable during the process, at least for occupied residential jobs.

we usually paint finished/occupied homes, so spraying the boxes is something I don’t consider an option.

most of the time the cabinets are still full, and people are currently living there.

Are others spraying boxes in finished homes?

 

[celicaxx]

I remember when that video first circulated on the board. It's obvious that the guy is a skeevy, dishonest dud - the kind that gives contractors of all kinds a bad name. But I also think there is more to the backstory - as in probably aspects where the HO was inserting himself in ways that he didn't belong. "You're taking YOUR paint...You can keep YOUR paint..." he says at one point. I'm thinking the HO had things in mind that the contractor didn't, and the contractor figured "fine I'll do it your way" and used that as an excuse to take it in the wrong direction.

One of the unfortunate things of the era is just that really bad contractors - like that one - give all of us a bad name. So then many clients decide to be the "police" of things they are not qualified to police - get all sorts of weird ideas from internet searches, and then decide to suddenly be experts and know how we're supposed to do things better than we do. While it's obvious that the contractor in the video is sleazy, the culminating "flip out" also may have also been a "last straw" moment. I'd hold out for 50/50 HO/contractor responsibility.

I'm reminded of a remodel job I once had - a known problem client (OCD-ish) - where there was a really badly planned out drywall to tile shower seam. Someone had done a horrible job trying to patch it in with some material or another, so I went about picking it back apart to see what could be done to pretty it up.

The HO, looking over my shoulder, got very aggravated as HE had done the horrible job of trying to patch it in. I calmly talked him back down and explained that it was my job to do the right things there and that I deal with such things all of the time. I assured him that I would make it right - the job the painter: to make everyone else look good even if they suck.

But my point is that my first gut reaction was to want to tell him to F off and leave the job site. Like I need that sh** - some know nothing dumb-a** telling me what to do with my work? Luckily he figured out in short order that I was, in fact, better at it all than he, and he left me alone to do the work.

Not equating that with the video as my situation was 100/0 not 50/50.

I think the story line with that guy was he was very lowball, and he bid the job for $1400 or somewhere around there. That's what I remember reading when it came out.

$1400, especially Canadian dollars, is not enough to do that job properly. I don't think I'm an expensive painter at all, but even as a single man I'd really struggle to hit $1100USD to do all those cabinets properly. To think of it this way, if you had $200 in materials for said cabinet job, including sandpaper, plastic, tape, etc, and of course paint, $900 labor would give you only $22 an hour if you did a 40 hour week on them, which maybe I'm slow but if you're removing everything, sanding your primer coats down and all that, maybe filling a few spots, I'd still see it taking about 5 days personally, albeit probably not complete 8 hour days.

DISCOUNTRENO.CA

RESIDENTIAL & COMMERCIAL PAINTING - SERVING THE GREATER TORONTO AREA SINCE 1996 COMMERCIALLY INSURED & FULLY COVERED BY WSIB

www.condopainting.ca

He's already been doxxed by said video, but this is his own website with his own prices.

CONDO SPECIALS
Loft / Bach. - $500 / $625 including paint.
1 Bdrm. unit - $575 / $750 including paint.
2 Bdrm. unit - $700 / $850 including paint.
3 bdrm. unit - $850 / $1100 including paint.
HOUSE SPECIALS
1000-1600 sq. ft. Townhome 1$ sq. ft. plus materials.
1400-3200 sq. ft. House 1$ sq. ft. plus materials.

***PLEASE NOTE THAT ALL ABOVE PRICES INCLUDING PAINT ARE REFLECTIVE OF Benjamin Moore BRAND CONTRACTOR GRADE PAINTS (other BM paint qualities can be applied/used at additional costs). All prices reflect a standard 8 ft. ceiling. Please note additional costs may be added for higher ceilings and areas. Ceilings & Doors / Trim extra.

Those rates are frankly way too low even just being walls, especially considering Toronto has a super high cost of living and high housing costs, and the Canadian dollar being lower than the USD.

He's been painting 26 years but hasn't learned lowball work and more poignantly, lowball customers aren't worth the squeeze.

EDIT:
Another part of the story I forgot to post was that the guy who fixed his cabinets maybe did it for free for publicity, but in another comment the HO said he quoted him that it would be $6000 to do it properly. Which to me sounds more in line.

 

[fromthenorthwest]

we usually paint finished/occupied homes, so spraying the boxes is something I don’t consider an option.

most of the time the cabinets are still full, and people are currently living there.

Are others spraying boxes in finished homes?

We almost always spray the boxes... I just ask the HO move everything down to the bottom of the box (or out of there's not enough room) so we can remove the shelves. With the shelves out you can mask out the boxes. It's quite a bit of masking but then you can get the prime coat and two top coats on really quick, with the nice sprayed finish.

Small units like bathroom vanities we just roll.

 

[Holland]

We almost always spray the boxes... I just ask the HO move everything down to the bottom of the box (or out of there's not enough room) so we can remove the shelves. With the shelves out you can mask out the boxes. It's quite a bit of masking but then you can get the prime coat and two top coats on really quick, with the nice sprayed finish.

Small units like bathroom vanities we just roll.

Nice job masking! That looks great. Imagine the finished result is a notch or two better than rolling (even with sanding between coats).

Big Question: How do you contain the overspray?

Next cabinets we are painting is in an occupied home, open concept design with a vaulted ceiling. I am not convinced I can safely spray that.

 

[fromthenorthwest]

Nice job masking! That looks great. Imagine the finished result is a notch or two better than rolling (even with sanding between coats).

Big Question: How do you contain the overspray?

Next cabinets we are painting is in an occupied home, open concept design with a vaulted ceiling. I am not convinced I can safely spray that.

Thanks!

Basically just setting up a big bubble with zip walls and plastic.
Yeah those open concepts are a pain in the butt to contain, especially with vaulted ceilings as the zip poles usually aren't tall enough.

Here's a couple pictures of how we do it. You can see here we had to use a 16 ft ladder as the lid was to high. If you can get the plastic up
before the ceiling starts to vault that might be the trick. If the ceiling is vaulted right off of the kitchen that would be tough. Maybe use some ladders as the skeleton if the zip poles don't reach the ceiling, and you'd have to get some longer plastic than the standard 12 ft.

 

[fromthenorthwest]

Nice job masking! That looks great. Imagine the finished result is a notch or two better than rolling (even with sanding between coats).

Big Question: How do you contain the overspray?

Next cabinets we are painting is in an occupied home, open concept design with a vaulted ceiling. I am not convinced I can safely spray that.

A couple things I've learned if you do spray in the kitchen- move the fridge out of the kitchen where the homeowner can access it so you don't have to mask it three times a day. Also run a row of inch and a half tape inside the box before you run the plastic it will give you a bit of a buffer zone so the plastic doesn't billow out.

 

[fromthenorthwest]

Nice job masking! That looks great. Imagine the finished result is a notch or two better than rolling (even with sanding between coats).

Big Question: How do you contain the overspray?

Next cabinets we are painting is in an occupied home, open concept design with a vaulted ceiling. I am not convinced I can safely spray that.