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Yes i did.One is spot primer and other is sanding sealer and none of them work properly on your project.
If you want to learn more please download msds.Since i do not use BIN as a wood primer and i cannot say what is it made or what is the difference.
On the other hand De-waxed shellac is nothing more than a #2 cut 17 percent solid clear shellac.Not suppose to be use for refinishing.Just as a wash coat to control the stain strength on the bare wood surface.
I'm not so sure you're able to provide a comprehensive assessment of BIN since you don't use it. I can think of probably 30 finishers around the world who would disagree with your claims. As far as your comment regarding de-waxed shellac, not only can it be used as a washcoat, it can also do well as a barrier coat when trying to refinish over problematic or unknown finishes, so it IS actually useful for refinishes as well as new wood.

Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. The way you do things clearly works for you. The pictures you show on projects seem to produce wonderful results. But I do take exception to people who claim their way is the only way, (especially when it isn't).

From Zinsser Sealcoat,
"Zinsser ® Bulls-Eye® SealCoat Universal Sanding Sealer is a 100% de-waxed shellac-based sanding sealer designed for use as an undercoat to prepare new or previously finished interior wood surfaces or as a pre-stain sealer and wood conditioner. "
 

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Guys i am not going to start a debate here as i said earlier.You guys all are make living out of this trade and all we have ways to finish the race.
Since this is a forum and we share knowledge that's what i am trying to do.I never said my way or highway and it is not my place.
I am not authority on any Zinsser products and you guys probably have better knowledge than me since i am a cabinet maker and you guys are painters.
My knowledge and guides are based on industrial products and how to use them.
Sorry if any of you misunderstood.
 

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What i know BIN is a spot primer.De-waxed shellac is a sanding sealer.Two different animal.
This is not a debate starting or anything but all different products has different use.You do not have a bare wood to seal .You have a wood that is already finished with lacquer.
If you insist not to use any type of lacquer product and you want to play safe you will have to strip that wood or you will have to soak in some lacquer thinner and break the lacquer substrate so that you can sand after and let the BIN stick easy.
Trust me on this BIN or de-waxed shellac has nothing to do at your project.If you are not comfortable spraying lacquer vinyl sealer or sanding sealer please find somebody who sprays for you.After you can spray color with any type of material.water or solvent.
I’ve seen numerous catastrophic failures due to adhesion loss when lacquer sanding sealers/primers were top coated with finishes ranging from PUs, Acrylics, Alkyds, & hybrid emulsions…IMO, not really a great choice as a universal primer/sealer..although many of the tech sheets do state “top coat compatible with most solvent and waterborne finishes”, which isn’t always the case..
 

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The are no solvent based MPI approved deep base bonding primers that I’m aware of.
It always amazes me how and why a Paint Contractor and paint salesmen suggest tinting the primer. I worked in a friendly environment in the 1990's where paint chemist and paint people could have open and honest discussions. There are 2 reasons I hate tinting the primer. 1. The finish coat is designed to go on at the recommended dry film thickness. I think 2.4 mils is the thinnest recommended dry film, this would require a wet film of at least 5 mils. 5 mils wet covers just about everything well with one coat. I'm well aware of Optimus and doest not meet that standard but that is another story at a different time. Cheating on the top coat does not protect anyone from a paint failure. 2. Most colorants were ethylene glycol based, in other words, anti freeze. Colorant breaks down the paint coating or reduces the integrity. I've had close to a hundred complaints of where My Paint is no good. The Navajo white on the stucco was amazing after 5 years, yet the Spanish Tile trim color washed out about a year ago. Paint any interior door with a dark color and conventional coating, go back in 3 weeks, give it the finger nail test? Very soft. Do the same test with the Extra White. a hard and solid finish.

A couple of years ago, I worked @ a paint company where 2 contractors dominated and commanded the entire residential repaint market. The homeowners would come into my store and review the 3 bids they obtained. one for $4500 another for $5000 and a third for $2800? This neighborhood, the smallest house was 2500 square feet. The losing contractors would tell me, don't bother giving them a lead if they lived in a particular neighborhood. Way too cheap. How many of you could paint a 3000 sq foot house using 7 gallons of primer and 8 gallons of finish coat on a stucco? Excluding the trim of course. My rule of thumb was a 3k house would take 30 gallons give or take 5 gallons, primer with 2 coats. You do the math, it is almost impossible to compete against a contractor who tints the primer to the finish coat.

Depending on the manufacturers colorant used, 2 ounces of black added to a gallon of BIN would yield a dark gray primer. Using a gray primer can fully developed the natural beauty of the finish coat. See the display at your local paint store. Have a good weekend.
 

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It always amazes me how and why a Paint Contractor and paint salesmen suggest tinting the primer. I worked in a friendly environment in the 1990's where paint chemist and paint people could have open and honest discussions. There are 2 reasons I hate tinting the primer. 1. The finish coat is designed to go on at the recommended dry film thickness. I think 2.4 mils is the thinnest recommended dry film, this would require a wet film of at least 5 mils. 5 mils wet covers just about everything well with one coat. I'm well aware of Optimus and doest not meet that standard but that is another story at a different time. Cheating on the top coat does not protect anyone from a paint failure. 2. Most colorants were ethylene glycol based, in other words, anti freeze. Colorant breaks down the paint coating or reduces the integrity. I've had close to a hundred complaints of where My Paint is no good. The Navajo white on the stucco was amazing after 5 years, yet the Spanish Tile trim color washed out about a year ago. Paint any interior door with a dark color and conventional coating, go back in 3 weeks, give it the finger nail test? Very soft. Do the same test with the Extra White. a hard and solid finish.

A couple of years ago, I worked @ a paint company where 2 contractors dominated and commanded the entire residential repaint market. The homeowners would come into my store and review the 3 bids they obtained. one for $4500 another for $5000 and a third for $2800? This neighborhood, the smallest house was 2500 square feet. The losing contractors would tell me, don't bother giving them a lead if they lived in a particular neighborhood. Way too cheap. How many of you could paint a 3000 sq foot house using 7 gallons of primer and 8 gallons of finish coat on a stucco? Excluding the trim of course. My rule of thumb was a 3k house would take 30 gallons give or take 5 gallons, primer with 2 coats. You do the math, it is almost impossible to compete against a contractor who tints the primer to the finish coat.

Depending on the manufacturers colorant used, 2 ounces of black added to a gallon of BIN would yield a dark gray primer. Using a gray primer can fully developed the natural beauty of the finish coat. See the display at your local paint store. Have a good weekend.
Stucco or wood finishes. the same principal applies. I worked at a store that supplied a $10k a month kitchen refinisher, he never tinted his BIN Shellac, FWIW.
 

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Thanks for pointing out my error, I meant BIN Shellac untinted. I have not sold BIN waterborne in almost 20 years, I now sell Gripper.

If I were repainting the furniture with DTM Alkyd as a finish, I would recommend an alkyd primer or sanding sealer as the base coat as they can be easily sanded as opposed to the latex.
 

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TDS for Sealcoat said it is "compatible with all clear finishes", and can act as a bond coat, but it doesn't say anything about going over it with paints or enamels.

It also states specifically not to "over apply"(but if so...), and that it should be sanded or abraded with an abrasion pad before top coating.

"B-I-N can be tinted with up to 16ml of universal tinter per litre. Tinting the primer toward the colour of the topcoat helps it hide in one coat. To achieve improved topcoat hide of mid/deep-tone colours, use Bulls Eye 1-2-3 Deep Tint Primer Sealer."

"SealCoat may be tinted with up to 2 ounces of universal colorant per gallon. SealCoat may also be tinted with alcohol-based stains or aniline dyes. Note that alcohol stains will dilute the viscosity. If using powdered dyes, shake to completely disperse the dye and let the container sit to remove bubbles."
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
TDS for Sealcoat said it is "compatible with all clear finishes", and can act as a bond coat, but it doesn't say anything about going over it with paints or enamels.

It also states specifically not to "over apply"(but if so...), and that it should be sanded or abraded with an abrasion pad before top coating.

"B-I-N can be tinted with up to 16ml of universal tinter per litre. Tinting the primer toward the colour of the topcoat helps it hide in one coat. To achieve improved topcoat hide of mid/deep-tone colours, use Bulls Eye 1-2-3 Deep Tint Primer Sealer."

"SealCoat may be tinted with up to 2 ounces of universal colorant per gallon. SealCoat may also be tinted with alcohol-based stains or aniline dyes. Note that alcohol stains will dilute the viscosity. If using powdered dyes, shake to completely disperse the dye and let the container sit to remove bubbles."
Hmm Interesting. Yes, I just noticed that. Although I can't see why a coloured enamel or urethane would act any different..? It may just be a marketing thing?
 

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Hmm Interesting. Yes, I just noticed that. Although I can't see why a coloured enamel or urethane would act any different..? It may just be a marketing thing?
That's what I was wondering... How different are they? Obviously one is pigmented, and the other is clear.

BIN vs Wax-free Shellac (aka Sanding Sealer, SealCoat)

According to TDS, Sanding Sealer would bond well.

So the question might be:
If prepped/sanded according to TDS, will paint adhere to Sanding Sealer?
 

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TDS for Sealcoat said it is "compatible with all clear finishes", and can act as a bond coat, but it doesn't say anything about going over it with paints or enamels.

It also states specifically not to "over apply"(but if so...), and that it should be sanded or abraded with an abrasion pad before top coating.

"B-I-N can be tinted with up to 16ml of universal tinter per litre. Tinting the primer toward the colour of the topcoat helps it hide in one coat. To achieve improved topcoat hide of mid/deep-tone colours, use Bulls Eye 1-2-3 Deep Tint Primer Sealer."

"SealCoat may be tinted with up to 2 ounces of universal colorant per gallon. SealCoat may also be tinted with alcohol-based stains or aniline dyes. Note that alcohol stains will dilute the viscosity. If using powdered dyes, shake to completely disperse the dye and let the container sit to remove bubbles."
I totally appreciate your technical assistance from the manufacturer{s}, sorry to say I am on the opposite end of the spectrum and sell paint for a living. Paint chemist are rewarded for the most part by developing a paint at a reduced cost to ensure the profit for the company is the desired end result. I for one, have inspected too many complaints for paint failure to believe everything I read and I do know too many paints are developed without one word of response from the end user [the paint contractor]. In 1991, Fran, a Blue Star paint chemist explained to me, that he could design a paint that could cover in one coat, flow and extend all brush and roller strokes, the alleged perfect paint. One problem, the method of application does not always produce the same results. A floor coating should be @ 22 to 28% solids by volume, everyone claims the coverage is terrible, but by increasing the solids, the resin is minimized and performance is miserable at best. Every paint has a benefit and conversely, every paint has a disadvantage. Performance versus profitability. Number of coats versus final rheology or the appearance to the end user. As stated last week, to my knowledge, a paint contractor is seldom contacted to seek his input. Again, If anyone has ever witnessed what an interior alkyd flat looks like and performs against any latex, has not seen a professional paint job. Pick your poison when it comes latex coatings involving wood products. I heard in 1972 Alkyds would not be produced by the paint industry by 1979? What happened to that story?
 

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I totally appreciate your technical assistance from the manufacturer{s}, sorry to say I am on the opposite end of the spectrum and sell paint for a living. Paint chemist are rewarded for the most part by developing a paint at a reduced cost to ensure the profit for the company is the desired end result. I for one, have inspected too many complaints for paint failure to believe everything I read and I do know too many paints are developed without one word of response from the end user [the paint contractor]. In 1991, Fran, a Blue Star paint chemist explained to me, that he could design a paint that could cover in one coat, flow and extend all brush and roller strokes, the alleged perfect paint. One problem, the method of application does not always produce the same results. A floor coating should be @ 22 to 28% solids by volume, everyone claims the coverage is terrible, but by increasing the solids, the resin is minimized and performance is miserable at best. Every paint has a benefit and conversely, every paint has a disadvantage. Performance versus profitability. Number of coats versus final rheology or the appearance to the end user. As stated last week, to my knowledge, a paint contractor is seldom contacted to seek his input. Again, If anyone has ever witnessed what an interior alkyd flat looks like and performs against any latex, has not seen a professional paint job. Pick your poison when it comes latex coatings involving wood products. I heard in 1972 Alkyds would not be produced by the paint industry by 1979? What happened to that story?
Will paint adhere to Sanding Sealer (aka de-waxed shellac)?
 

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I totally appreciate your technical assistance from the manufacturer{s}, sorry to say I am on the opposite end of the spectrum and sell paint for a living. Paint chemist are rewarded for the most part by developing a paint at a reduced cost to ensure the profit for the company is the desired end result. I for one, have inspected too many complaints for paint failure to believe everything I read and I do know too many paints are developed without one word of response from the end user [the paint contractor]. In 1991, Fran, a Blue Star paint chemist explained to me, that he could design a paint that could cover in one coat, flow and extend all brush and roller strokes, the alleged perfect paint. One problem, the method of application does not always produce the same results. A floor coating should be @ 22 to 28% solids by volume, everyone claims the coverage is terrible, but by increasing the solids, the resin is minimized and performance is miserable at best. Every paint has a benefit and conversely, every paint has a disadvantage. Performance versus profitability. Number of coats versus final rheology or the appearance to the end user. As stated last week, to my knowledge, a paint contractor is seldom contacted to seek his input. Again, If anyone has ever witnessed what an interior alkyd flat looks like and performs against any latex, has not seen a professional paint job. Pick your poison when it comes latex coatings involving wood products. I heard in 1972 Alkyds would not be produced by the paint industry by 1979? What happened to that story?
Fine paints of europe have some incredible oil coatings including a flat, nothing else really like them in the states. I had a painter show me today some liquid metal product he has been spraying $1000/gallon but holy **** I've never seen anything like it. You can turn an MDF panel into a real iron/stainless/brass/copper/patina etc and its real metal.
 

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I totally appreciate your technical assistance from the manufacturer{s}, sorry to say I am on the opposite end of the spectrum and sell paint for a living. Paint chemist are rewarded for the most part by developing a paint at a reduced cost to ensure the profit for the company is the desired end result. I for one, have inspected too many complaints for paint failure to believe everything I read and I do know too many paints are developed without one word of response from the end user [the paint contractor]. In 1991, Fran, a Blue Star paint chemist explained to me, that he could design a paint that could cover in one coat, flow and extend all brush and roller strokes, the alleged perfect paint. One problem, the method of application does not always produce the same results. A floor coating should be @ 22 to 28% solids by volume, everyone claims the coverage is terrible, but by increasing the solids, the resin is minimized and performance is miserable at best. Every paint has a benefit and conversely, every paint has a disadvantage. Performance versus profitability. Number of coats versus final rheology or the appearance to the end user. As stated last week, to my knowledge, a paint contractor is seldom contacted to seek his input. Again, If anyone has ever witnessed what an interior alkyd flat looks like and performs against any latex, has not seen a professional paint job. Pick your poison when it comes latex coatings involving wood products. I heard in 1972 Alkyds would not be produced by the paint industry by 1979? What happened to that story?
There's still quite a lot bad about oil, despite it adhering to anything and covering every sort of problem. I used it a lot for my first few years, and now I don't unless it's really needed.

I think a sort of fundamental issue with latex paints is the paint companies aren't really reasonable in managing expectations of the end user. I think ultimately people's expectations in paint come from what oil used to be able to do, that latex just can't really as easily do (things like stains, adhesion, etc.) The problem is, paint companies instead of managing the expectations of latex end users, put marketing in like "paint and primer in one" and "stain blocking power" and that sort of thing. I think latex paints work perfectly adequately in their own lane, so to speak, but it gets hard explaining to non-painters that their trim needs to be sanded, primed, primer sanded, and finally top coated with two coats when oil could have pretty much have been dumped on in one coat with barely/no sanding and looked adequate.

So with latex, it leads to a lot of just vandalized/ruined sort of stuff, of gummy rentals with 50 layers of droopy peeling runny latex paint on their doors and trim nobody the wiser, just assuming that's how paint is.
 

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There's still quite a lot bad about oil, despite it adhering to anything and covering every sort of problem. I used it a lot for my first few years, and now I don't unless it's really needed.

I think a sort of fundamental issue with latex paints is the paint companies aren't really reasonable in managing expectations of the end user. I think ultimately people's expectations in paint come from what oil used to be able to do, that latex just can't really as easily do (things like stains, adhesion, etc.) The problem is, paint companies instead of managing the expectations of latex end users, put marketing in like "paint and primer in one" and "stain blocking power" and that sort of thing. I think latex paints work perfectly adequately in their own lane, so to speak, but it gets hard explaining to non-painters that their trim needs to be sanded, primed, primer sanded, and finally top coated with two coats when oil could have pretty much have been dumped on in one coat with barely/no sanding and looked adequate.

So with latex, it leads to a lot of just vandalized/ruined sort of stuff, of gummy rentals with 50 layers of droopy peeling runny latex paint on their doors and trim nobody the wiser, just assuming that's how paint is.
Very well said. Think about this concept? We have a gallon of paint, we add half a gallon of primer? What happens. The paint appears blotchy after curing and the surface is very tacky to touch. Paint has the function of protection and appearance, primer is designed to block stains, act as a tie coat between coats, reinforce minimized or questionable surfaces. But wait, DIY and Homeowners need a label where they can get away with one coat and claim the surface was primed and finished. They just eliminated an entire step in the painting process and claim it is valuable because they said so. Sell a lot more paint to lazy individuals and slick contractors who can minimize the labor and material cost of painting. Who wins??? No one.

I did the experiment back in the 1990's, one coat of a premium paint versus 2 coats of the cheapest paint, Just guess who won. Moisture, sunlight and dirt accumulation always overcome the quality of the coating. I have inspected complaints on residences for over 30 years, High moisture designed with trees adding to the dirt accumulation leads to a miserable appearance with the paint job. Stretch the top coat to a covert rate of over 800 square feet per gallon with a .310 tip and the end user has a 2 year life span on his paint job. $5000 versus 2800? Whats the difference.

In the 1970's and early 80's I quit my paint career to work for a company called General Motors. I'm sure few of you remember the paint jobs on a chevy where the quarter panels were peeling after 2 or 3 years. My Step Dad drove a Mercedes and Volkswagons. They received 30 or 40 coats of paint. Whose paint endured the test of time? Look at a late model vehicle nowadays. Some manufacturers look brand new after 5 or 6 years, the other need a complete repaint. Mil build is absolutely necessary or essential to a long paint life. At least the major consideration. Because a manufacturer puts claims and implied warranties on their products doesn't make it so. 25 and 50 year warranties have been printed on tubes of caulk for over 40 years. I have yet to see a claim paid on caulk failure?? Let me know if you have?
 
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