I would really keep working on your square footage rates. I personally have a hard time with estimated hourly rates. Its also harder to sell to some clients. As $70 per hour may be alarming VS $1.00 per square foot. Also as you get better and faster you're times will drop and you will rightfully be charging clients LESS money with your higher skill set. I will argue this point forever. Get paid for your dedication to quality, your unsurpassed skill, and commitment to your clients. Not for your time.
With that being said its pointless to compare square footage rates. My rates are based on my financial needs and goals for the future. Essentially I started with a daily rate i wanted to make. Estimated times per project and put them into square footage rates to equal my days pay. As I did jobs I changed numbers to suite the project but surprisingly didn't change much. As I have gotten better and faster these numbers are really making me a happy living where I'm unconcerned with fuel or extra time on a job. Also since I charge by the paintable sq.ft I use those numbers to estimate materials which is rarely off. The one draw back is it takes a while to calculate all the numbers and put them into a quote form.

 

I would really keep working on your square footage rates. I personally have a hard time with estimated hourly rates. Its also harder to sell to some clients. As $70 per hour may be alarming VS $1.00 per square foot. Also as you get better and faster you're times will drop and you will rightfully be charging clients LESS money with your higher skill set. I will argue this point forever. Get paid for your dedication to quality, your unsurpassed skill, and commitment to your clients. Not for your time.
With that being said its pointless to compare square footage rates. My rates are based on my financial needs and goals for the future. Essentially I started with a daily rate i wanted to make. Estimated times per project and put them into square footage rates to equal my days pay. As I did jobs I changed numbers to suite the project but surprisingly didn't change much. As I have gotten better and faster these numbers are really making me a happy living where I'm unconcerned with fuel or extra time on a job. Also since I charge by the paintable sq.ft I use those numbers to estimate materials which is rarely off. The one draw back is it takes a while to calculate all the numbers and put them into a quote form.

Thank you for your input

 

We're in different locations so square footage rate comparisons may not be too helpful. However my ceiling rate is around 1/3 of what a full wall and ceiling job would be, and yours appears to be closer to 1/4. So maybe there's some room to bump yours up to closer to 1/3.

Although linear feet seems to be the standard for trim, I prefer counting windows and doors. Breaking windows into sill or full wrap, and small, medium, and large categories.

I use the floor square footage. Even though it's not as accurate as the wall square footage as far as materials go, I prefer it for how much easier it is. At least for me, it's gotten pretty accurate through a few years of tweaking, and there's no guarantee I will get the job so I try to minimize quote time that I don't deem essential.

 

That's a solid point about going off floor square footage vs wall sq.footage as you're not guaranteed the job, so might as well spend less time at the estimate. Thank you

 

In the past I've gone off square footage

On those projects did you end up making the profit you were expecting/hoping for ?

Are you familiar with job costing ? Having you been tracking your labour hours and material costs for every project?

When I started out, coming up with prices for painting projects was really hit or miss in terms of profit and i really struggled. Until I learned about job costing (google nick slavik job costing).

If you keep track of two simple data points and make a spread sheet you will quickly be able to see if you are under pricing or possibly your production rates are inefficient or both!

Keeping track of your Lead to sale generation is also really important but that's a different subject.

 

So, I haven't been keeping track of those as much as I should, primarily because I've spent the better part of the last year working for someone else because I realized I needed to improve my skills, however as I'm now making a greater effort to get my own jobs I'll certainly be making more of those data points. Thanks also for the Google search recommendation

 

@JTpainting I'll estimate it right now for you and see if the rest of the crew here agrees or not.

How many sqft is the bungalow?
Painting the exterior?
Painting exterior and interior doors and windows?
Painting cabinets?
Condition of the bungalow?
Is there a lot of detailing or is it pretty basic?

 

@JTpainting I'll estimate it right now for you and see if the rest of the crew here agrees or not.

How many sqft is the bungalow?
Painting the exterior?
Painting exterior and interior doors and windows?
Painting cabinets?
Condition of the bungalow?
Is there a lot of detailing or is it pretty basic?

980 sq.ft
Interior only

No cabinets

Good, HOWEVER, light smoker and as it's winter, theres some smoke damage

Fairly basic I'd say. Very few deficiencies and only 3 doors. Also, he's putting me in charge of colour selection (any standard matte white) for the walls (standard 8ft)


Here are some pictures.

Have at her fellas

 

$5,912

Includes the cost of paint, materials, pre and clean up. All in.

 

$5,912

Includes the cost of paint, materials, pre and clean up. All in.

Wow, that's seems far too high! Don't get me wrong I'd love to make that on this job but 1) It's a for a family friend, and 2) it's not that big or complicated of a job. How did you arrive at that price anyway?
View attachment 115998

 

@JTpainting

We use Middler. They have a test site that is learning from painters and homeowners daily to dial in painting prices and I hear they're launching a new version very soon with the data they have collected but I probably should have lead with this is California prices where gas most of the time is $6/gallon, a hamburger is $15, and minimum wage is $50/ hour for a painter. Don't even get me started on taxes, insurance, and every other fee that the state can figure out to tack on. Unfortunately the homeowner suffers but at the end of the day we have to do jobs that make money or why are we doing it? That leads me to this being a job for a friend which is very different and you sound like you're going to be a great friend. hahaha.

 

Is Middler still in business and or updating their software seamlessly to get an accurate price range etc. Thanks, Derek

 

DECENT AMOUNT OF PREP WORK, WHEN PAINTING CEILINGS. TAKES TIME DONT FORGET YOUR PLASTIC. LOL GOOD LUCK HOPE HE AWARDS THE PROJECT TO YOU AND REMEMBER QUALITY FIRST MONEY SECOND.


R&D PAINTWORKS
ROBERT MARINO,
EXECUTIVE CONSULTANT
RNDpaintworks@mail.com
352-422-8536

@JTpainting

We use Middler. They have a test site that is learning from painters and homeowners daily to dial in painting prices and I hear they're launching a new version very soon with the data they have collected but I probably should have lead with this is California prices where gas most of the time is $6/gallon, a hamburger is $15, and minimum wage is $50/ hour for a painter. Don't even get me started on taxes, insurance, and every other fee that the state can figure out to tack on. Unfortunately the homeowner suffers but at the end of the day we have to do jobs that make money or why are we doing it? That leads me to this being a job for a friend which is very different and you sound like you're going to be a great friend. hahaha.

Yea, no one in this region or this country even would ever pay that amount of money for a job of this scale 😅, but thanks for your input anyway.

 

The scale of the job is one thing but that's where painters here get in trouble and bring the painting industry down with estimating low. After calculating everything from travel, trash disposable, plastic, tape, time, etc... it adds up! To give you an idea of what I'm talking about the site estimates 3 prices like the picture below to educate the public which I really appreciate.

 

Wow, a lot of painters in this region would dispute some of the claims made of what to expect in the "Budget" category. Personally, I'm detailed, would never water down paint, I communicate effectively, I'm insured, I'm not licensed as you don't need to be licensed in Ontario to paint houses or commercial spaces(as far as I know). I don't have a guarantee (need to work on that - any suggestions ?? )but this is a cash job so I don't think a customer could rightfully expect a guarantee on a job, HOWEVER, this doesn't mean I'm going to do a **** job or ignore a complaint should one arise. Now, even with all of that, I'm still going to come under $2,833 - good thing I'm not in California 😜, lol. Appreciate the info though

 

Hahaha. I hear you! Unfortunately this is is what a lot of painters are up against. All those things cost real painters a lot of money and I actually didn't even bring up the painters doing cash deals and not paying taxes on the money. That's a minimum of 20% if you're paying taxes. So right off the bat that $5900 is really $4720 if you're legit.

Let's say a painter here does that job and makes a net $2000. That job with estimating to clean up will add up to about a week. If you do 1 of those jobs a week you're making $104,000 a year. If you have a standard family of 4 and live in a "nicer" area this is just not enough in CA.

If there are CA painters here I would love to hear their thoughts.

 

Hahaha. I hear you! Unfortunately this is is what a lot of painters are up against. All those things cost real painters a lot of money and I actually didn't even bring up the painters doing cash deals and not paying taxes on the money. That's a minimum of 20% if you're paying taxes. So right off the bat that $5900 is really $4720 if you're legit.

Let's say a painter here does that job and makes a net $2000. That job with estimating to clean up will add up to about a week. If you do 1 of those jobs a week you're making $104,000 a year. If you have a standard family of 4 and live in a "nicer" area this is just not enough in CA.

If there are CA painters here I would love to hear their thoughts.

True, these things do add to a painter's costs. You guys also are competing with a whole lot of cheaper (migrant) labour, so I guess there's that, too. Also, you and I are comparing two different currencies as well.

About duration for this job, for another painter and I to do it properly should only be three 8-10 hour days (I always work faster in my mind though 😅), including prep and clean up. The job won't be until June but when I do it, I'll log everything from costs to hours to travel time and I'll post the results along with more pictures and dimensions.

I'll also post my quote in order to get some feedback, too.

Stay tuned!

 

Sounds good and all the best to you!

 

Thank you and same to you!

 

I’ve never seen the value of using square footage since every job is different with prep, coats, etc. I count doors and windows and then just mentally walk myself through the job estimating the time for each part, ceilings, walls, trim, trips to the store, travel. I multiply the hours by what I want to make per hour. Then I add 20% buffer, aggravation fee, if necessary. Exteriors are harder but I tend to add more buffer. Through experience I’ve gotten pretty accurate. I get enough jobs to stay busy and well fed.

 

And if you have enough work thats great! But the beauty of this program because it factors in those things for you but also save you all that count, walking around and mental calculating which, ultimately, customers think we're just trying to feeling out what we can get away with charging. Now I know, I know, I know... I'm not trying to offend you and like a bunch of other painters on here will say is "if that's what they think the the H with them and we don't need their business" I get it but I'm just trying to be honest.

That being said what I see happening to painters in our area is they do what you are saying but then a company comes in, with an equally great reputation like you, but they also have software like this program that takes their estimates to another level and they win the job because we'll its just another selling point. Estimates based on consistent calculations and a fancy email estimate thats branded with thier logo goes a long way. Kind of like pulling up in a nice work truck vs a beat up one. We all know customers take that into account.

 

CSteven, did you create this software?

 

No

 

I totally agree with you, as far as pricing based off SF, rather than hourly. It may take some adjusting at first, but once you've got it dialed in, I find it to be the most profitable way to price. His numbers are very similar to mine, but I'm from the states.