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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've read on here about the dreaded cabinets with a waxy finish or that have been cleaned with Pledge, but had yet to run up against it. I think we may have that going on on a current job though. As usual we cleaned with no rinse tsp and scuffed to 180. Primed with Smart prime and also a couple doors with PPG gripper. A couple days later fingernail was still able to remove large strips of paint with ease. I know wb primers may not have the adhesion of oil or shellac, but we've done quite a few kitchens with Smart prime so I know there is something more than just the primer going on here. After scraping all the paint off, there seems to be sort of a waxy finish on these doors, that needs to be sanded pretty hard for it to be removed. I tried to get a shot of the original finish where you could see some of the waxy appearance, not sure if that comes through in the picture or not though.

Thoughts?
Wood Table Wood stain Flooring Floor

Paint Gesture Wood Thumb Material property

I've sanded heavily with 180 now, and I've confirmed that smart prime has a good Bond now. But I'm going to use cover stain to reprime and hopefully eliminate the risk. More wondering for future reference in a good test you may have for diagnosing this type of problem in advance. I should be doing a couple test doors every job but everything's worked so good I haven't needed to lately.
 

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I've read on here about the dreaded cabinets with a waxy finish or that have been cleaned with Pledge, but had yet to run up against it. I think we may have that going on on a current job though. As usual we cleaned with no rinse tsp and scuffed to 180. Primed with Smart prime and also a couple doors with PPG gripper. A couple days later fingernail was still able to remove large strips of paint with ease. I know wb primers may not have the adhesion of oil or shellac, but we've done quite a few kitchens with Smart prime so I know there is something more than just the primer going on here. After scraping all the paint off, there seems to be sort of a waxy finish on these doors, that needs to be sanded pretty hard for it to be removed. I tried to get a shot of the original finish where you could see some of the waxy appearance, not sure if that comes through in the picture or not though.

Thoughts?
View attachment 114223
View attachment 114221
I've sanded heavily with 180 now, and I've confirmed that smart prime has a good Bond now. But I'm going to use cover stain to reprime and hopefully eliminate the risk. More wondering for future reference in a good test you may have for diagnosing this type of problem in advance. I should be doing a couple test doors every job but everything's worked so good I haven't needed to lately.
Pledge contains silicone, which is why it’s so nefarious.

Regarding WB primers, manufacturers recommend waiting full cure time for adhesion tests. Paint and primer dry together, and full adhesion is not reached until full cure.

ive run into the same issue (initial weak adhesion of primer) since switching to waterborne primers. Most of the adhesion concerns were fine after waiting full cure. I’ve lost a lot of sleep over it, but usually has been fine after full cure, if prep was done properly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Pledge contains silicone, which is why it’s so nefarious.

Regarding WB primers, manufacturers recommend waiting full cure time for adhesion tests. Paint and primer dry together, and full adhesion is not reached until full cure.

ive run into the same issue (initial weak adhesion of primer) since switching to waterborne primers. Most of the adhesion concerns were fine after waiting full cure. I’ve lost a lot of sleep over it, but usually has been fine after full cure, if prep was done properly.
Yeah I was thinking that might be an issue so I gave them over the weekend. The back side of the doors had 5 days to dry, which I don't believe is the full cure time yet, but usually with Smart prime within a couple hours and definitely overnight the scratch test is usually pretty solid.
 

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That is not a pledge/silicone issue. Pledge causes "fish eyes" on application and as soon as it is on the surface as the paint resists / is repelled by the contaminate. Your paint went on smoothly but did not adhere.(It looks the same as when one paints WB over an oil finish) What you have there is a serious adhesion problem, I think. Sand with clean paper and use a good bonding primer. An aside, I do not trust any cleaner that promises you don't need to rinse; I always rinse.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Ouch!

Could even be due to the existing clear sealer containing a zinc stearate soap.

A simple dyne test could be used to determine the presence of contaminants such as silicone oil or wax.
That's got me interested. Does that require a special type of pen? I just did a quick search.

Edit: after a bit more reading that looks like something I need to have in my toolbox for finish work. Thanks for the tip.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
That is not a pledge/silicone issue. Pledge causes "fish eyes" on application and as soon as it is on the surface as the paint resists / is repelled by the contaminate. Your paint went on smoothly but did not adhere.(It looks the same as when one paint WB over an oil finish) What you have there is a serious adhesion problem, I think. Sand with clean paper and use a good bonding primer. An aside, I do not trust any cleaner that promises you don't need to rinse; I always rinse.
Thanks! That makes sense, I guess I've had issues with silicone on non cabinet surfaces and it certainly does fisheye.
 

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That's got me interested. Does that require a special type of pen? I just did a quick search.

Edit: after a bit more reading that looks like something I need to have in my toolbox for finish work. Thanks for the tip.
I’ve used dyne test inks when doing re-coats on hardwood flooring to test for silicone-containing floor polishes and/or waxes. Silicone-containing polishes and waxes have a surface energy of ~ 24 dynes (give or take) so they’re pretty easy to detect with the inks. The general rule of thumb for good wetting and adhesion is that the substrate surface energy should be ~ 8 dynes greater than the surface tension of the coating. Being that most acrylic and urethane coatings have a surface tension of 38 dynes, the substrate surface energy should be equal to or greater than 46 dynes to insure proper wetting & adhesion. There are however some bonding primers which provide decent adhesion in the mid to high 30 range.

I might add that low surface energy substrates and/or contaminants don’t always result in crawling and/or fisheyes, as I discovered when priming polyethylene earlier this year, being that polyethylene has a surface energy of 30 dynes…it didn’t fisheye or crawl, but the primer peeled off similarly to the pic in your post.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I’ve used dyne test inks when doing re-coats on hardwood flooring to test for silicone-containing floor polishes and/or waxes. Silicone-containing polishes and waxes have a surface energy of ~ 24 dynes (give or take) so they’re pretty easy to detect with the inks. The general rule of thumb for good wetting and adhesion is that the substrate surface energy should be ~ 8 dynes greater than the surface tension of the coating. Being that most acrylic and urethane coatings have a surface tension of 38 dynes, the substrate surface energy should be equal to or greater than 46 dynes to insure proper wetting & adhesion. There are however some bonding primers which provide decent adhesion in the mid to high 30 range.

I might add that low surface energy substrates and/or contaminants don’t always result in crawling and/or fisheyes, as I discovered when priming polyethylene earlier this year, being that polyethylene has a surface energy of 30 dynes…it didn’t fisheye or crawl, but the primer peeled off similarly to the pic in your post.
Hey thanks for that easy to understand info Redux, will be very helpful in the future.
 

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I've read on here about the dreaded cabinets with a waxy finish or that have been cleaned with Pledge, but had yet to run up against it. I think we may have that going on on a current job though. As usual we cleaned with no rinse tsp and scuffed to 180. Primed with Smart prime and also a couple doors with PPG gripper. A couple days later fingernail was still able to remove large strips of paint with ease. I know wb primers may not have the adhesion of oil or shellac, but we've done quite a few kitchens with Smart prime so I know there is something more than just the primer going on here. After scraping all the paint off, there seems to be sort of a waxy finish on these doors, that needs to be sanded pretty hard for it to be removed. I tried to get a shot of the original finish where you could see some of the waxy appearance, not sure if that comes through in the picture or not though.

Thoughts?
View attachment 114223
View attachment 114221
I've sanded heavily with 180 now, and I've confirmed that smart prime has a good Bond now. But I'm going to use cover stain to reprime and hopefully eliminate the risk. More wondering for future reference in a good test you may have for diagnosing this type of problem in advance. I should be doing a couple test doors every job but everything's worked so good I haven't needed to lately.
Try Krud Kutter or Chomp. And R.O. sand with 180. Then test. Cover stain isn't an ideal primer for cabinets. Try Agualente wb wood primer from MLC, assuming they still make it. Trust me - try it once you'll never want to use anything else.
 

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That is not a pledge/silicone issue. Pledge causes "fish eyes" on application and as soon as it is on the surface as the paint resists / is repelled by the contaminate. Your paint went on smoothly but did not adhere.(It looks the same as when one paints WB over an oil finish) What you have there is a serious adhesion problem, I think. Sand with clean paper and use a good bonding primer. An aside, I do not trust any cleaner that promises you don't need to rinse; I always rinse.
Yes! Always rinse!
 

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Hard to know the issue. Our typical cabinet prep now is clean with regular Krud Kutter. Rinse. Sand 180. Wipe / vac. Wipe with Krud Kutter gloss off. Rinse. Stix or smart prime. I like Stix adhesion better but my guy likes how smart prime lays out and sands. Stix often gives us little craters that usually fill / go away after 2nd coat Prime. So 2 coats primer over wood cabinets , caulk front panels (not back) , two coats Scuff x. If oak we back roll at least 2nd coat primer to help fill grain.
 

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Ouch!

Could even be due to the existing clear sealer containing a zinc stearate soap.

A simple dyne test could be used to determine the presence of contaminants such as silicone oil or wax.
I never heard of a dyne test before reading this. So, I googled it. It tells you that it will either keep the line from the pen or it will separate. So, I assume if it separates, your paint will also. So, if this happens, what do you do before painting? I never had this issue before so I always thought, clean, degrease,, sand, and you are good. That has always worked for me. But evidently, one day it will noy. So, if the dyne test fails, then what?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I never heard of a dyne test before reading this. So, I googled it. It tells you that it will either keep the line from the pen or it will separate. So, I assume if it separates, your paint will also. So, if this happens, what do you do before painting? I never had this issue before so I always thought, clean, degrease,, sand, and you are good. That has always worked for me. But evidently, one day it will noy. So, if the dyne test fails, then what?
I think if the dyne test fails, cleaning with the solvent such as acetone like @MikeCalifornia mentioned might improve the situation.
 
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