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Bad stuff gets done with BM, too. If anything some contractors use it as a mask of "I use BM so therefore I'm high quality" when they could take similar shortcuts on prep and application or pick completely wrong products. I guess it's less likely than from a Promar King, but even this guy we talked about in another cabinet thread said on his site he only uses Benjamin Moore. I will say SW's positioned themselves in the lower end of the market place and there's probably more bad apples among painters that use SW, but imo a lot more painters than we'd like to admit hide behind the "elite" and "premium" mask of BM.
you strawmanned me there but i agree
 

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I think being clear, too, not all cabinets need to be done in oil based paint, lacquer, or polyurethane. Latex is perfectly acceptable in some scenarios, just with latex paint your preparation and application needs to be more on point, and imo your choice of primer is very important for a latex paint. The BM Scuff X is a latex paint, and as far as what I've heard it's approximately as strong as oil. There's quite a few latex paints that are around that strong, but they're advertised for cabinet and trim use, not just as a general purpose wall paint. Cashmere would be kinda just barely cutting it, it's supposedly about as "strong" as latex Proclassic, but I've heard SW doesn't like to advertise it for trim because it would cut away at profits Proclassic makes. Same even with BM for Regal and Aura, there's people that do use it on cabinets and it works out "fine" but Advance or Scuff X in that scenario would be better.
Any latex/acrylic paint formulated for use on cabinetry will be either some form of amino alkyd or fortified with urethane resin. Cabinet coat for example is a urethane fortified acrylic coating. Scuff-X, while I have no doubt it is an excellent product, isn't made for cabinets and makes no claims that it is.

Standard acrylic latex trim paint doesn't have the chemical/water/scuff/chip resistance required of high traffic, high use areas like cabinets. It also lacks the block resistance required as well which is something that someone not overly familiar with cabinet work will often overlook.

Alkyd is OK for cabinetry, though not ideal. I can't even get my hands on the stuff anymore. A lot of modern coating chemistry is based on it - MLC's Krystal conversion varnish is an amino alkyd coating for instance.
 

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Any latex/acrylic paint formulated for use on cabinetry will be either some form of amino alkyd or fortified with urethane resin. Cabinet coat for example is a urethane fortified acrylic coating. Scuff-X, while I have no doubt it is an excellent product, isn't made for cabinets and makes no claims that it is.

Standard acrylic latex trim paint doesn't have the chemical/water/scuff/chip resistance required of high traffic, high use areas like cabinets. It also lacks the block resistance required as well which is something that someone not overly familiar with cabinet work will often overlook.

Alkyd is OK for cabinetry, though not ideal. I can't even get my hands on the stuff anymore. A lot of modern coating chemistry is based on it - MLC's Krystal conversion varnish is an amino alkyd coating for instance.
I do agree such products are ideal and will be better, but factually most of the companies will warranty their higher end latex paints on cabinets.

Newest TDS of BM Regal Pearl says:

Ideal for interior trim, doors, cabinets, walls, and new or coated acoustic ceilings. For new or previously painted wallboard, plaster, masonry, and primed or previously painted wood and metal
Same for Sherwin with Proclassic WB

Project Uses: •trim areas and molding •cabinets-doors-windows •kitchen’s-baths-locker rooms •laundry rooms •high traffic areas
Even the VERY lowly BM Ultra Spec 500 is specified for cabinets in the TDS:

Again, I'm not arguing use of such a paint is perfectly 100% ideal, just that they are specified by the manufacturers as OK to use and that it will not all peel off like $10 a gallon Walmart Colorplace paint if prep is done well.

It's my understanding that any vinyl based paint should not be used on any cabinets or ideally anything trim like doors, etc, but with naming conventions/etc it gets complicated as paint companies now claim vinyl acrylics are "100% acrylic" on their labels. Usually the term to look for is "styrenated acrylic resin" or "acrylic copolymer" something to that effect. That's when you know a resin sucks or not for abuse (though a vinyl based paint certainly can still look good.) So if you look at Promar's TDS, it plainly states it's a vinyl acrylic.

Again, I'm not arguing it's 100% ideal to use a latex paint on a cabinet, just that you can and manufacturers will stand behind it (as much as a paint manufacturer can, of which BM definitely has the best warranties.)

you strawmanned me there but i agree
Sorry for strawman. :(
 

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Allowing this thread to continue is a good example to the paint contractors' community of the potential problems arising from the shortages of preferred products from Sherwin Williams. I've seen first hand that the shelves are bare when I visit the paint store in need of a specific product. The game then turns in to "What's Available" to get the job done. In my region the alternatives are "Slim to None". All that being said, the painting of the hinges are a huge red flag that the painter was incompetent, and that information combined with the potential unavailability of the correct products was a predictable recipe for disaster. My condolences to the homeowner, they are at the mercy of the contractors.......
 

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I wouldn't use Goo Gone, but 91% isopropyl alcohol is a better test. Alcohol will melt latex paint but won't do anything to oil based paint. If the oil based paint isn't fully 100% cured something with acetone or toluene (which is what's in goof off) could still take paint off and give her a false positive. Oil based paint can take up to 2-3 weeks to maybe a month to fully cure rock hard, especially if you used an additive like Penetrol that retards dry time. The other test, too, would be in the nature of the peeling. Oil base if it's not fully cured will certainly chip off a bit, whereas latex will peel in sheets and feel gummy.

Latex will peel in some variant like that.

I think being clear, too, not all cabinets need to be done in oil based paint, lacquer, or polyurethane. Latex is perfectly acceptable in some scenarios, just with latex paint your preparation and application needs to be more on point, and imo your choice of primer is very important for a latex paint. The BM Scuff X is a latex paint, and as far as what I've heard it's approximately as strong as oil. There's quite a few latex paints that are around that strong, but they're advertised for cabinet and trim use, not just as a general purpose wall paint. Cashmere would be kinda just barely cutting it, it's supposedly about as "strong" as latex Proclassic, but I've heard SW doesn't like to advertise it for trim because it would cut away at profits Proclassic makes. Same even with BM for Regal and Aura, there's people that do use it on cabinets and it works out "fine" but Advance or Scuff X in that scenario would be better.

Anyway, with the PM200 on the walls cracking that way from being way too thick, no priming, and painting directly onto hinges I no longer can really give the painter any benefit of the doubt that it was only SW's fault for their shortage shenanigans. The only other thing that could have been the issue but I doubt it is application temperature, if it was unheated and say, 40-50F inside that can cause issues with paint curing too slow and cracking like that. But still, PM200 requires a primer and is not advertised as "self priming" even over bare drywall as far as I know.



Bad stuff gets done with BM, too. If anything some contractors use it as a mask of "I use BM so therefore I'm high quality" when they could take similar shortcuts on prep and application or pick completely wrong products. I guess it's less likely than from a Promar King, but even this guy we talked about in another cabinet thread said on his site he only uses Benjamin Moore. I will say SW's positioned themselves in the lower end of the market place and there's probably more bad apples among painters that use SW, but imo a lot more painters than we'd like to admit hide behind the "elite" and "premium" mask of BM.
The only time I saw red flags concerning another painter’s choice of products was when I saw they were using Behr or Rhodda. Of course there are other cheap brands but these seemed to be the most commonly used
Allowing this thread to continue is a good example to the paint contractors' community of the potential problems arising from the shortages of preferred products from Sherwin Williams. I've seen first hand that the shelves are bare when I visit the paint store in need of a specific product. The game then turns in to "What's Available" to get the job done. In my region the alternatives are "Slim to None". All that being said, the painting of the hinges are a huge red flag that the painter was incompetent, and that information combined with the potential unavailability of the correct products was a predictable recipe for disaster. My condolences to the homeowner, they are at the mercy of the contractors.......
Though I would agree that being unable to purchase the right product for the job may be an issue at this time, I think a plain and frank discussion with the HO and contractor would be in order rather than just using whatever crap is available. If they decided that proceeding was more important than waiting to get the right product, then at least they would be partially responsible if (when) things went south.
 
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Promar 200 on walls is not that unheard of.
Emerald on walls is overkill.
You went from one extreme to the other.
I would have gone with Duration matte most likely, of cashmere low lustre.

As was stated its very unusual for the walls to be peeling like that. Generally speaking flat paint is the least likely paint to peel, as it absorbs into the drywall vs sitting on top.

Using promar400 on cabinets is definitely a bad idea.

To whoever said only Benjamin moore products are high quality- that is complete nonsense. I've enameled many a house in SW proclassic, both oil and latex varieties and the finish is as high quality as anything else.

Good luck to the op
 

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Promar 200 on walls is not that unheard of.
Emerald on walls is overkill.
You went from one extreme to the other.
I would have gone with Duration matte most likely, of cashmere low lustre.

As was stated its very unusual for the walls to be peeling like that. Generally speaking flat paint is the least likely paint to peel, as it absorbs into the drywall vs sitting on top.

Using promar400 on cabinets is definitely a bad idea.

To whoever said only Benjamin moore products are high quality- that is complete nonsense. I've enameled many a house in SW proclassic, both oil and latex varieties and the finish is as high quality as anything else.

Good luck to the op
IMO PM200 shouldn't be used on walls in a higher end house. Not really any circumstance for using it there except maybe garages and closets. Of course the idea of "high end" is relative and that gets into the McMansion debate where in the construction of McMansions corners are cut everywhere.

It seems their problem is extreme mil thickness and wet on wet coats, and no priming, not really just the PM200. If they spec'd a true matte though, their only choices would be SW Emerald or Duration, or possibly Cashmere Flat which is not dead flat but has a very slight sheen. Out of all the SW paints I've worked with Cashmere is my favorite, though. For PM200 they could have done low sheen eggshell which is close to matte. But with the SW shortage issues it could have all been a matter of "take what you can get." Still, if it was a shortage related issue it would have been much better to switch suppliers, but that could have required up front costs compared to SW's charge account.

I guess my personal opinion on the matter is SW products are better on the lower end of the price spectrum and BM is better on the higher end of the price spectrum. As in, SW Cashmere imo beats BM Ben, but BM Regal beats SW Emerald and Proclassic (even as a trim paint.) There's a couple of other products I could say that, too, SW Problock beats Sureseal but doesn't beat Fresh Start 046, I would say overall BM is better for exteriors, too. Of course some people will argue against this but I think it's generally true. Another huge plus is BM is better for warranty issues. When I was working as a sub generally I'd use BM, on my own jobs it was kinda 50/50 to whatever I felt like. SW was always easier due to the credit account, though, but I've had issues pre-shortage where they were out of things I wanted and their recommended substitution was fairly terrible and I should have went to BM. So going to BM would have saved me time and money in the long run.
 
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