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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi all,

Just wanted to get thoughts on the acceptability of the work on original manufacture cabinets using INSL-X Cabinet Coat. Two coats were painted mix of spray and brush and/or roll. Is this par the course for quality work? Or would you expect clean lines, full coverage, and smooth surfaces (no obvious brush marks, paint defects)?


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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Any advice would be appreciated as final payment has not been made yet.

A little more context. This is for semigloss paint. Contract language is below.

"All surfaces of cabinets will be cleaned and sanded."

"Preparation

Surfaces will be prepped properly, they will also be re-inspected and patched as necessary before finalcoats are applied

All cracks in surfaces will be filled and nails will be
puttied as specified

Glossy surfaces and trim will be sanded and cleanedto assure proper paint adhesion

Scrape and sand rough areas when lead is not an
issue due to previous paint failure

All new and raw wood will be primed as needed

Apply a stain sealer to water stains and tannin wood stains"
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
“PaintTalk.com is designed for professional painting contractors and the related fields to discuss issues and topics pertaining to the painting industries...”

This is a painting question and work done by a painting subcontractor for which I hired for a HO. I'm asking professional painting contractors their advice what they would do to ensure the HO and painter are on the same page so the project can continue.

I asked out of a place of need. If you do not want to help that's completely valid but posting dismissive replies without any real content has no value beyond showing a lack of willingness to help someone with your years of experience and expertise.
 

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No one is trying to be dismissive of your post. It’s just that more information concerning your situation would be helpful. If you are not a HO, then are you a decorator or GC?

As stated, this is a site for professional painters to assist others in the trade or to get advice themselves. However, with that said, when someone is having an issue with a painter there is sometimes a bit of leeway allowed. None of us like seeing a customer get charged a premium price for a sub standard or an even downright crappy job. But sometimes that’s all a customer has negotiated for.

The problem is that there are so many variables involved, especially on repaints, that it can be virtually impossible to determine what is acceptable or not based on the pictures you gave and the conditions of the contract (which are good - to a point).

This looks like a repaint of existing cabinets so what were your expectations and what did the painter promise? If the cabinets in question were pieces of crap when originally installed ( and many are), or became crap after years of heavy use or abuse, then this may be a case of the proverbial sow’s ear trying to be made into a silk purse. Or, to take another porcine example, was the painter being asked to put lipstick on a pig? In all of the contract language you provided, the phrasing is mainly about what should be done, not the level of quality that was expected. In other words, the painting contractor could have done most (or even all) of what the language called for, but still done a s****y job while thinking in their mind that they fulfilled their part of the contract.

Which brings us to price. If you are laying out $1200 for an entire kitchen cabinet job, compared to say $10,000, well you will get what you pay for.

Also,what is the experience level and reputation of the painter? Have they a good track record or did you just hire someone who could get the job done within a specific time frame or schedule? This is usually closely aligned with price.

I could go on, but you get my point. All of the things that might affect the outcome of a paint job are the same that would apply to anyone in any aspect of the trades whether they be framers, foundation guys, plumbers, electricians, and even the decorators or GCs themselves. Yes, one would hope you could negotiate in good faith expecting to get a quality job regardless of whomever you hire. And someday pigs may actually fly (what the hell is it with all the pig references in this post?).

Sounds like you are aware that professional standards (PCA) exist so all I could advise is to take those standards, fairly and reasonably apply them to the job in question, and then sit down and have a discussion with the painting contractor and see where you stand. Just be aware that you may need to temper your expectations based on some of the aspects of the job I listed above. Especially the price factor. IF you tried to get by on the cheap, especially since painting is one of the last items on a job and sometimes GCs (if that is what you are) are over budget or out of money when they get to it, then you will have no one to blame but yourself.

Out of professional courtesy (this time assuming you ARE a GC), I will temporarily leave this thread open in order for you to clarify the situation further and possibly get some additional feedback. But if you decline to provide us with some additional background info, then it will be be closed.

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Hi RH,

Thank you for your reply.

No one is trying to be dismissive of your post. It’s just that more information concerning your situation would be helpful. If you are not a HO, then are you a decorator or GC?
GC. Extensive experience in glass but new to GC about 1 year. Limited knowledge of painting.

However, with that said, when someone is having an issue with a painter there is sometimes a bit of leeway allowed.
Agree. Would like to temper expectations since this is not the highest bid but a reputable painter. The work is for a kitchen island, lower laundry, and two baths about 5K.

This looks like a repaint of existing cabinets so what were your expectations and what did the painter promise?
HO expectations are clean lines, full coverage, smooth surface free of defects. The job is for repaint of existing cabinets that came in white from the manufacturer (customer did not want to spend extra money tearing out 2 year old cabinets in good shape). Painter is aware of HO expectations and promised as such.

Also,what is the experience level and reputation of the painter? Have they a good track record or did you just hire someone who could get the job done within a specific time frame or schedule?
The business was established in 09. The owner has been in the trade for 20+ years. Yes good track record; they are also Diamond Certified as per HO request.

(what the hell is it with all the pig references in this post?)
Maybe bacon 🥓 time?

Sounds like you are aware that professional standards (PCA) exist so all I could advise is to take those standards, fairly and reasonably apply them to the job in question, and then sit down and have a discussion with the painting contractor and see where you stand.
Everyone is all aware and that is the plan. Haven't looked at it extensively but P1 and P14 appear to be scope?
 

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I didn't see any mention of application method. Were the doors sprayed while the frames were rolled? I ask because several of those pictures appear to have an acceptably smooth finish while other areas the orange peel is pretty blatant.

Some of those lines could definitely be cleaned up, although I noticed a lot of the lines are pretty sharp. It makes me think the painter knows what they're doing and maybe their helper overlooked a few things. That texture on the wall is pretty thick, it can be difficult sometimes to get straight lines even with tape and caulking. But it wouldn't hurt for them to come back with a small brush to straighten out anything the homeowner is unhappy with.

Overall it doesn't look like a terrible job (hard to say because there are no pictures of the entire job and other areas that may be good) but there are some glaring areas that are definitely subpar as you've shown in the pictures. I would say ask the painter to come back for a day to do some touch-ups and repairs. I think if he takes pride in his work he won't have a problem doing that.
 

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Hi RH,

Thank you for your reply.



GC. Extensive experience in glass but new to GC about 1 year. Limited knowledge of painting.



Agree. Would like to temper expectations since this is not the highest bid but a reputable painter. The work is for a kitchen island, lower laundry, and two baths about 5K.



HO expectations are clean lines, full coverage, smooth surface free of defects. The job is for repaint of existing cabinets that came in white from the manufacturer (customer did not want to spend extra money tearing out 2 year old cabinets in good shape). Painter is aware of HO expectations and promised as such.



The business was established in 09. The owner has been in the trade for 20+ years. Yes good track record; they are also Diamond Certified as per HO request.



Maybe bacon 🥓 time?



Everyone is all aware and that is the plan. Haven't looked at it extensively but P1 and P14 appear to be scope?
Thanks for your clarifications. Based on what you shared, and from what your pics show, there would seem to be room for improvement.

If you haven’t already had a discussion with the painter then it’s time. Showing them your areas of concern (hopefully it’s somewhat limited and you didn’t just show us the very worst) is the next step and then guage their response. If they agree to redo those spots then allow them to do so. Hopefully that will be all that is needed. If none of that works out, or they balk at trying to fix it at all, then it maybe time to lawyer up.

All of this is tough to do via the internet so what I am suggesting is tempered by that limitation, but communication and cooperation between you, the painter, and the HO is critical at this stage and will hopefully let all of you avoid the possible next, and much more unpleasant level.

Others will likely weigh in here soon because working for GCs was never a huge part of my business. Some members who didan likely bring in further, and likely better, insight into the situation.
 

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Will add that trying to touch up anything sprayed, especially on smooth surfaces, and with dark colored products with a higher sheen, can be a bear. Any such touchups are bound to show under certain light and if too obvious ( like in the middle of a door face) may require respraying to really look right. No painter wants to hear that but that might not be an unreasonable approach for you to take.
 

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Will add that trying to touch up anything sprayed, especially on smooth surfaces, and with dark colored products with a higher sheen, can be a bear. Any such touchups are bound to show under certain light and if too obvious ( like in the middle of a door face) may require respraying to really look right. No painter wants to hear that but that might not be an unreasonable approach for you to take.
I don't think it's possible to touch up the majority of the mentioned areas with semigloss cabinet coat. I would buff it with 320 and respray before I even tried.
 

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Did you discuss this already with the Painter? That is a function of a General Contractor, and would be a logical next step.

Once the discussion moves into publicly stating contract claims, it sounds to me like it could potentially moving toward enforceable action. What, if anything, has the Painter said in his defense when you brought these blemishes to his attention (Trying to better understand the situation)?

Perhaps I am misreading intentions. What is your objective? What would you like to see happen?
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Did you discuss this already with the Painter? That is a function of a General Contractor, and would be a logical next step.

Once the discussion moves into publicly stating contract claims, it sounds to me like it could potentially moving toward enforceable action. What, if anything, has the Painter said in his defense when you brought these blemishes to his attention (Trying to better understand the situation)?

Perhaps I am misreading intentions. What is your objective? What would you like to see happen?
Thanks Holland. Appreciate the response and understand if it wasn't clear prior.

The HO initially shared their concerns with me. Part of my process is to do my due diligence to find common ground between all parties so it is fair and reasonable. Thereafter, will present the data to the painter and determine if the response is appropriate for the situation. So TBD.

My objective here was to assess the validity of HO concerns and ensure the valid ones are addressed per industry standards (which this community seems to represent) by the painting contractor so the project can move forward. Ultimately, maintain positive relationships with all parties to deliver the project on scope and well.
 

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Thanks Holland. Appreciate the response and understand if it wasn't clear prior.

The HO initially shared their concerns with me. Part of my process is to do my due diligence to find common ground between all parties so it is fair and reasonable. Thereafter, will present the data to the painter and determine if the response is appropriate for the situation. So TBD.

My objective here was to assess the validity of HO concerns and ensure the valid ones are addressed per industry standards (which this community seems to represent) by the painting contractor so the project can move forward. Ultimately, maintain positive relationships with all parties to deliver the project on scope and well.
From what I have seen, the customer most likely has some valid concerns. If they were my cabinets, I would not expect to see any glaring errors. Maybe a few less than perfect ones if I looked hard enough, but not much more.
 

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From what I have seen, the customer most likely has some valid concerns. If they were my cabinets, I would not expect to see any glaring errors. Maybe a few less than perfect ones if I looked hard enough, but not much more.
The painter is not here to defend himself, unless he happens to be on PT right now.
 
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