[PressurePros]

Let me give you a quick background.

Myself and another company owner have just taken over an industry org (www.uamcc.org) We are rebuilding from the ground up to make this an entirely contractor focused organization. One of the issues that has come to surface is licensing for pressure washing.

Since you guys that do exterior work also do pressure washing, what is your feeling on having to have a license to perform this task? What are your feelings on contractor licensing in general? Rather than post my feelings which may serve to sway the responses, I would love to hear your thoughts.

 

[premierpainter]

Why would you need a license for power washing if you already have a license to be a painter. It is like needing a license to weedwack if you are a landscaper. I think that they are needed tools of the trade. If all you do is power wash than you need a license anyway because it is a home improvement. Right or wrong??

 

[PressurePros]

There are very few states that require licensing for pressure washing (in PA you don't even need a license to build an addition as long as you use licensed plumbers and sparkies). Some are pushing for state certification for even operating a pressure washer. This would be above and beyond your current painting requirements/certs. I don't agree with this stance, but just wanted to let you know why I am asking.

 

[MAK-Deco]

Why would you need a license for power washing if you already have a license to be a painter. It is like needing a license to weedwack if you are a landscaper. I think that they are needed tools of the trade. If all you do is power wash than you need a license anyway because it is a home improvement. Right or wrong??

I agree with premier on this one. Seems like another way to get money out of our pockets and the hacks will still be there doing it w/o a license adn what about DIY'ers and homeowners? would they be required to get one?

 

[GMack]

I say the more licensure requirments in the trades, the better. I look at it as an area of differentiation. In Vermont there are no requirements.

 

[plainpainter]

Why would you need a license for power washing if you already have a license to be a painter. It is like needing a license to weedwack if you are a landscaper. I think that they are needed tools of the trade. If all you do is power wash than you need a license anyway because it is a home improvement. Right or wrong??

I somewhat disagree on this point - as painters we sort of 'get away' with scraping old home with layers of lead paint - for the most part. But if we have a customer sign an officical document for lead abatement - then we need to be licensed contractors to remove lead - you see where I am headed? Some town enforce their own 'rules' for lead which may or may not contradict state or federal guidelines - and for the most part there is little to no enforcement - as long as you don't pi$$ off a local inspector or do really stupid stuff like grind a lead 'dust storm' - which is still common, then you are ok. But - if you go ahead and approach a customer - with 'lead abatement' - then you had better be licensed.

Painters use to be required to have a Riggers' license - what ever happened to that?

 

[plainpainter]

I agree with premier on this one. Seems like another way to get money out of our pockets and the hacks will still be there doing it w/o a license adn what about DIY'ers and homeowners? would they be required to get one?

Homeowners in MA for instance are given lots of leeway when removing lead paint on their homes - from removing to bagging into the trash - but as contractors, if we used the same methods that's ok for a homeowner - we would get bagged - we're suppose to do a much 'better' job. I think the rationale is laxing the rules for homeowners - although not ideal - does promote more removal of lead paint - which they feel is better in the long run. So licensing without aggressive crack down on 'under the radar' guys will only serve to harass the honest contractor in my opinion.

I saw at least a dozen safety and environment violations from various teams in my area that are lowballers. Did I do anything to report them? Nope - just a waste of my time - with all the criminals on the street who has time to go after 'dishonest' contractors. Heck if you want to report an illegal crew - you have to provide their cell phone numbers, their drivers licenses, and their address of residenct - are you kidding me? Who the hell is going to do all that, and how would you go about doing it? Perhaps it's racial profiling - but if I see a crew of guys that look like central Americans, fit the profile of widely discussed illegals in our collective conscientiousness, and are jib jabbering in a foreign language - what else do I really need to know? In probability terms - it's probably a good guess that 90% of the time I will be right - but nobody is there yet to enforce the rules.

 

[vermontpainter]

Myself and another company owner have just taken over an industry org (www.uamcc.org) We are rebuilding from the ground up to make this an entirely contractor focused organization./quote]

Hey Ken

Like you needed another project? Haha!

 

[Brian]

I am opposed to licensing of any profession as a matter of principle.

The premise behind licensing is that it protects the consumer. This simply does not happen. Merely because someone can meet whatever criteria are extablished to get a license does not mean that that company/ individual will continue to meet those criteria. Licensing breeds a false sense of security among consumers. They believe that the licensing agency has done the homework, and the consumer is therefore safe. One doesn't need to read very far in the daily paper to see how wrong this is.

But my real objection is the attack on individual freedom represented by licensing. When a profession is licensed it means that those without a license cannot legally enter that profession. It also means that consumers cannot legally hire an unlicensed individual. Licensing prevents individuals from engaging in voluntarily exchanging values, much to the detriment of everyone involved.

I am not opposed to voluntary certification and consumer education. I am totally opposed to government imposed and enforced licensing. And, I would vigorously fight any attempt to impose licensing on any business I own.

Brian Phillips

 

[slickshift]

In any state I've worked in, a "license" is a registration with the state's Consumer Protection Agency that in says basically, as far as they know the license holder hasn't been convicted of contractor type fraud in any other states

That's about it though
Doesn't mean you know what you are doing....just means you haven't been to jail for defrauding people

 

[RCP]

In my state the license process is pretty intense. You have to show 2-4 years experience, have insurance, pay 4-600, pass legal and trade test and not have any felony convictions or drug charges. You are also required to attend continuing education, 4 hours core and 4 hours trade. The state has a website that shows whether contractors are licensed and shows discipline action. They also run a lein recovery fund we pay into. They do come out to job sites and check. I direct customers to the site when doing proposals. I think it helps to inform and protect the customer.

 

[PressurePros]

Myself and another company owner have just taken over an industry org (www.uamcc.org) We are rebuilding from the ground up to make this an entirely contractor focused organization./quote]

Hey Ken

Like you needed another project? Haha!

I hear ya, Scott. I'm a glutton for punishment.

 

[PressurePros]

My response on an industry forum:

Licensing will only work with tough enforcement and more than a smack on the wrist for violation. That's where the issues arise. A crooked business owner is going to weigh his averages.

Here are the facts:
• A company is breaking a federal law to send water down storm drains. Thousands of companies do it everyday and will continue to do so. The fine is steep but again it doesn't stop a person that doesn't care and figures he will slip through the cracks.
• You risk a raid by the DOL and INS if you if you hire illegal aliens. I read an article that mentioned a number of 15 million ilegals working in the US every day. Wow! Here is an old article about Walmart hiring cleaning contractors that employed ilegals: Wal-Mart Raids by U.S. Aimed at Illegal Immigrants STEVEN GREENHOUSE / NY Times 24oct03

Scan the article and take notice of this: "This is the result of almost a four-year investigation. We're a law enforcement agency, and we're going to enforce the laws."
Four years? More proof that our government is not the most efficient machine in the world. Here was a large scale operation that probably cost taxpayers hunreds of millions of dollars. Is it unrealistic to think the government can make a dent in this epidemic? They certainly aren't going to waste resources tracking down small companies that hire ten illegals to cut grass or pressure wash residences.

Again, I am on the fence with the issue. I look at PW licensing in the same vein as gun control. The only people that comply are the honest ones. Without enforcement the end result could very well be that we get what we wish for and add more operational expense. This just makes it harder for us to compete with companies that ignore silly little federal laws like the Clean Water Act (CWA) and The Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA). Those guys will now laugh their way into the hearts of the homeowner because they now have even less overhead and can continuously undercut a legitimately operating company.

I am more with Jim on this and favor certification. (Jim, mark your calendar) I understand what the goal of everyone that strongly favors licensing. I believe there is a different route to take than letting the government have another finger in our business. I think we all agree that the government can pass laws. I think we can also agree that the government cannot enforce those laws with diligence.

So what can be done?

Food for thought. Licensing does not mean a company is qualified to perform the work they sell. Lets face facts. Guys have been writing "licensed and insured" on their trucks and print materials for decades.

Do you know how many homeowners ask me if I have a license to operate or ask to see my insurance certificates? Almost zero. Yet, there are a million articles/check lists out there that tell consumers what to look for before hiring a contractor and one of them is always to check license and insurance. Why does no one do that? (PS: PA requires no state licensing but I spend nearly $700 per year on municipality/city licenses) This makes every license I have to operate nothing more than a tax.

A national agenda can be undertaken to combat this situation via a marketing campaign.

Huh? Let me explain. Whenever a person has a problem, you first get to the core of it. Why do we want licensing? My answer: Because I want to ebb the tide of hacks that undercharge and vandalize properties. I think that's what we are discussing right?

I tend to go by real world business models.

Licensing: not really working. Many states already require PW'ing companies to be licensed. Has it changed anything in your area?

Telling people to ask for insurance certs and licensing: not really working.

Here's a whopper: Check to see if the BBB (Better Business Bureau) has given the company a good rating. Well blow me down, people do this every day by the millions. Your feelings about the BBB as a business owner are irrelevant. People think the BBB is a government watchdog agency. They trust the BBB. Why? Because the BBB has marketed themsleves that way. Period.

I'm going to stop there as I have ideas that I am not ready to expose that I think will accomplish more in one maneuver than we could spend the next five years discussing the merits of licensing.

 

[vermontpainter]

Ken

It seem like it would be more proactive to find a way to ramp up the consumer education end of it. There have to be better ways to educate the public about the value of demanding, and therefore paying (which is also what we are talking about) professionals. Just a thought.

 

[PressurePros]

I agree with you, Scott. Its an expensive proposition to perform as a single company or local group but I would like to approach the BBB and see if they would be interested in a contractor certification program via guidelines established from industry orgs.

 

[vermontpainter]

That could be a good start, especially if done in parallel with a massive consumer education effort.

Every time I hear the story from a homeowner about the dirtbag contractor who did shoddy work or no work and took the money and ran, I am sympathetic to a degree. Its unfortunate when one person takes advantage of another. I also know that the dirtbag is just doing what dirtbags do, and I have higher expectations for the homeowner than to give the dirtbag the opportunity. I mean seriously, if we all sit at our local paint store for an hour, we can discern which contractors we would do business with and which ones we wouldnt. Why can't the consumer? They can, but its human nature to want to take the bait of the dirtbag. That is the one area where the dirtbag is clever, he feeds the greed.

Raising consumer awareness has to be a part of it. And you are right, sooo many of us list on our websites and in our promotional materials all the info one could ever need about contractor selection. I'd like to see the manufacturers get more into advocating not only premium materials, but also proper professional application.

 

[PressurePros]

That could be a good start, especially if done in parallel with a massive consumer education effort.

Every time I hear the story from a homeowner about the dirtbag contractor who did shoddy work or no work and took the money and ran, I am sympathetic to a degree. Its unfortunate when one person takes advantage of another. I also know that the dirtbag is just doing what dirtbags do, and I have higher expectations for the homeowner than to give the dirtbag the opportunity. I mean seriously, if we all sit at our local paint store for an hour, we can discern which contractors we would do business with and which ones we wouldnt. Why can't the consumer? They can, but its human nature to want to take the bait of the dirtbag. That is the one area where the dirtbag is clever, he feeds the greed.

Raising consumer awareness has to be a part of it. And you are right, sooo many of us list on our websites and in our promotional materials all the info one could ever need about contractor selection. I'd like to see the manufacturers get more into advocating not only premium materials, but also proper professional application.

I agree its all about the public awareness. The problem is, from where does the budget come? A modest major-market-only campaign with enough exposure to be effective would be in the hundreds of thousands if not over a million. I think the BBB already has the established channels and track record to make something in the realm of true consumer awareness possible.

 

[slickshift]

I think the BBB has already has the established channels to take money from business owners

I think the BBB has an excellent track record of bamboozling consumers into thinking they can actually help them somehow

I don't see the difference between the BBB and the Consumer Protection Agency
Except the CPA actually has some authority

 

[vermontpainter]

I think there is a solution, Ken. I dont know what it is yet. I'd like to see the paint manufacturers take some initiative. Although, that starts to reek of gun control, where we hold the gun manufacturers responsible for the actions of dirtbags who do bad things with guns.

Conventional wisdom would say that folks are basically decent and will do the right thing with guns, paint and pressure washers...or in the case of homeowners that they should just know better than to hire a bad contractor. Education and awareness is the answer. So many of us already do it, kind of grassroots, from the bottom up.

This is a very interesting thread, lets hear more from everyone.

 

[PressurePros]

Slick, I feel your pain, trust me. I have resisted the temptation to join them for years but one can absolutely not argue with even not admire what they have been able to achieve. I think the goal for most guys wanting licensing is to eliminate the lowballers and hacks from the market. I don't see that as doing a damn bit of good. Crooks will still operate without licenses, insurance or expertise. Personal feelings of the BBB aside, people trust them. Trust sells jobs. Now if you look at your BBB membership (or certification) as a business expense with a significant ROI one may see things differently. Now in this vision imagine a certification program that at th very least requires monthly supplying of current licensing and insurance certificates to stay a member. I know there are a hundred pitfalls to allowing one company this type of control over the trades. I'm open for options.