[GMack]

I suppose I'll use this post to introduce myself also. My name is Greg. I've been in business for about 7 years in northern Vermont. I have one employee and will grow quite a bit this spring. I've learned more on these boards over the last few years than I ever have trying to figure it out myself until I stumble upon the answers. I've spent countless hours reading through posts from R.K. and others, posting occassionally when I have questions. I just registered on Paint Talk so "Howdy" and "Happy Painting."

My question has to do with your initial sales call. I've learned over time that my goal is to sell the highest quality job possible at the highest price possible.

In doing this, do you mention at your initial meeting, the fact that you imagine your price will be higher than anyone else's but that the service you provide will be of equally higher quality, preparing them in a way so they don't get too bad a case of sticker shock?

Or, do you not even mention price, sell quality, reflect professionalism, and hope your potential customer recognizes all this and assumes that your price will be higher?

For the most part, I don't mention price at the estimate. Then I end up "defending" the price either over the phone or via e-mail. I e-mail my estimates from quickbooks and follow up with an e-mail. I like to just e-mail because I think it is more comfortable for people though I'm considering setting up another meeting to present my estimates . . . it all goes together doesn't it?

I'm wondering what you do and what works for you/what doesn't.

Thanks, Mack

 

[uglyjoe]

Mack, welcome to the site.

Personally, i think its best to let your references and referrals speak for you. It's amazing the amount of guys down here that scream quality and professionalism in every breathe but can't seem to get any work worth having.

My company is at about a 75-80% referral rate, meaning that 75% of all my work is through referrals. Most of the time, I have not talked to my customer except via email till I show up to do the work. The other 25% find me on the web and their only contact method is a quote form, which they fill out and in turn I email their quote back to them. Let your brush speak for you with these customers.

Every now and again, not often, someone contacts me with a job that is hard to explain, like the unique floor plan that you really must see to quote.

---

The things I normally dont get when it comes to painters, they "say" they have a referral rate which is numbered as high as mine, yet, they have signs on every corner, lettering all over their van, they normally still wear whites (which is a sign in itself and i wont go "there" today).

If your into a lot of "I am a real professional" lip service with your customers chances are better than not that your work won't back it up. if your new to your area and you don't have the referrals and references then you have to find a niche until you can build those up.

Just remember, "Real Pro Painters" don't drive around all day consulting, estimating, meeting with, etc, these are what a wannabe handyman contractors do for a living.

You want to command respect from your customers and employees?

Paint Everyday and Spend your afternoons with your family!

---
edited to put this note in, sorry
---

You dont have to get tippidy top dollar to make a fortune in the paint trades, you have to have the "work".. Everyday, for you and your team. If you are in it to get the top most industry dollar from your customers, you will never get above a 25% referral rate, your references will say "yeah, he's good... but he's exspensive" your schedule will be near void of work, you will have high turnover because you can't keep your team busy. Thats a lot of negatives for "Top Dollar".

end edit

---
forgot something else
---
I feel that some above statements will query some resulting questions from others so lemme answer them before they post.

1. No, I do not put signs out, ever!
2. Yes, my vans are void of all advertising, no signage at all.
3. No, I will not clarify the wearing of whites issue for you, that's your hangup.

definition of "heres my references"

This goes for everyone, i dont care who you are or what you do:

When putting forth your references whether by request or other design, please know this.

1. less than 10 = amateurish
2. less than 20 = sub-par
3. less than 30 = getting better but still green
4. less than 40 = moving into the big league
5. 50 or More = You wont find one painter that can compete with me period

yes thats right ladies, 50+ names, Numbers and Addresses is your reference list

 

[vermontpainter]

Just remember, "Real Pro Painters" don't drive around all day consulting, estimating, meeting with, etc, these are what a wannabe handyman contractors do for a living.

You want to command respect from your customers and employees?

Paint Everyday and Spend your afternoons with your family!




So, for those of us who dont have that high of a referral rate, when should we do the aforementioned chores? How big is your crew?

And, Welcome Greg!

 

[Brian]

Mack,

I only address price when it is appropriate. I usually ask the customer what criteria they will use when selecting a contractor for their project. If they mention price, then I will probe deeper.

I prefer to show rather than tell. I show the customer more value-- we answer the phone live, we show up on time, we offer more information and literature, etc. By doing this, the customer generally expects our price to be higher. That doesn't mean that they know how much higher or will award us the project, but we have prepared them for our price.

As Uglyjoe says, it's easy to make claims. Anyone can claim that they offer more value. But the truth is, if you are actually offering more value, it should be fairly apparent to the customer.

Brian Phillips

 

[uglyjoe]

So, for those of us who dont have that high of a referral rate, when should we do the aforementioned chores? How big is your crew?

And, Welcome Greg!

vp,

good questions, although one seems a bit accusatory, I will answer both in order with the utmost respect that the members of this fine site deserves.

---

So, for those of us who dont have that high of a referral rate, when should we do the aforementioned chores?

Answer: Although i painted a very broad stroke in that statement, I did touch the answer in the post when I said you should find a niche until you have or reached a desirable referral rate.
The scope of that portion of my post was to get some brackets around this in general:
When talking to customers that did not come to you by way of referral, that also do not have in their hand a copy of your 50+ references, that no matter how dumb you think they may be, always assume they are the smartest people in the world. If you are passing out the "Im so good and experienced, been painting forever routine" and hand them 2 or 3 names and phone numbers as references, be prepared for them to think you foolish. Always assume that the next guy who they consider will bring to the table what I can; an excellent price, a long and impeccable list of references and zero chatter.
If you are there, and don't have these, just be yourself and be honest, they will truly appreciate this. Tell them your new in business! Tell them you dont have that many references, and dont be out there trying to bite off big projects.. start small, you might just like the small better. Which brings me to your second question.

How big is your crew? Rephrased - How many crews do I have?

I do not employ crews. I employ Teams. A crew is more than 4 people who may or may not know each other, get along, know what each other can or cannot do etc. etc.
So Team is more to my liking.

I have 4, 3 man Teams not including my own Team, In State. I have 3, 2 man Teams out of state. We like the small stuff.. no,we LOVE the small stuff.

There was a time (long ago) when I had 40 guys on the clock, and all we did was New construction. That was 5, 8 man crews. Nobody knew anyone else and Nothing was anyones Job.. "It's not my job man" even I, who was young and dumb felt like it was MY job to drive around all day, checking, overseeing, delegating, re-supplying, whatever,,, anything but painting, right along beside someone else.


thats enough

Mack, very sorry we just hijacked your thread. You might want to report vermontpainter to the moderator for asking me questions in your thread

 

[vermontpainter]

Joe

I didnt mean to imply anything with my questions, anymore than I take your condescension personally. It just surprised me when you made the statement that if you want your employees to respect you to "paint all day long and spend the afternoons with your family." Its a great concept, but every employee I have ever had is really not that concerned with how much I am painting, although I do paint quite alot. And they really could care less how I spend my free time. What they do look for and appreciate and respect is: a steady flow of quality work, topnotch equipment and materials to complete the work with, a paycheck every week and a vacation every year. So, don't make it all about yourself.

My question regarding the size of your workforce was rooted in a concern that I myself have had. There comes a time when your rotator cuffs get a little too raw and need a break from the brushwork. Its nice to know that you have people who are capable of completing the work in your absence. You are a self-proclaimed master painter. I hope you are surrounding yourself with some talent as well and not just people who respect you because you paint every day and spend the afternoon with your family.

Finally, with all due respect, I should like to suggest that you work on not treating everyone out here in your posts as if they are beginners. This is not Beginnersonlypainttalk.com. I know you havent been here that long, and neither have I, but perhaps you could consider the possibility that there are some very well-established and highly intelligent business owners out here helping growing businesses like mine.

p.s.

I am quite sure Greg will be ok with this.

 

[uglyjoe]

you are right my friend, in all points you made.

i cannot argue with one, Salute!

 

[GMack]

vp,


Mack, very sorry we just hijacked your thread. You might want to report vermontpainter to the moderator for asking me questions in your thread

No that's quite alright. I was wondering how many employees you had also. The fact that you can keep that many people busy strictly by word-of-mouth is super-impressive.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I haven't been able to. (You can draw whatever conclusions you like about what that says about my workmanship but I assure you that it's second to none). In realizing that just being a great painter isn't doing it for me, I have begun to turn toward looking at the business end of things, the selling, the advertising, etc.

UglyJoe, you say that you don't need to get the absolute highest number on every job and that the name of the game is staying busy (paraphrasing). I know I could be much bigger and maybe busier too if I came down on my prices but why would I do that? Why wouldn't I figure out a way to keep my prices where they are (or go up)?

Thanks for the response, Mack

 

[uglyjoe]

No that's quite alright. I was wondering how many employees you had also. The fact that you can keep that many people busy strictly by word-of-mouth is super-impressive.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I haven't been able to. (You can draw whatever conclusions you like about what that says about my workmanship but I assure you that it's second to none). In realizing that just being a great painter isn't doing it for me, I have begun to turn toward looking at the business end of things, the selling, the advertising, etc.

UglyJoe, you say that you don't need to get the absolute highest number on every job and that the name of the game is staying busy (paraphrasing). I know I could be much bigger and maybe busier too if I came down on my prices but why would I do that? Why wouldn't I figure out a way to keep my prices where they are (or go up)?

Thanks for the response, Mack

hey that was joke about reporting us to mod, i think he got it, not sure.

Mack, I aint always been the busiest boy on the block, Ive had my fair share of lean times Lord knows. Ive had to change my business model several times. Ive been through the "Thought I was a Painter" to "Big Money Painter" to "Pretentious Painter" to "Broke Ass Painter" to "Im to dam busy Painter" to "I Owe the IRS way to much money Painter" to "Ill never be able to Pay all this money back to the IRS Painter" to "Im free, its been ten years, they cant collect now if they wanted to Painter" And more...
Each phase of my career as a paint contractor has had its ups and downs and Ive had to brush n roll at each turn. Ive looked at other business models, tried to incorporate them, nothing ever worked forever. You have to move and bend as time dictates, be able to move ahead, laterally, or backwards.

I just know this for sure. Every time I landed on my arse, it has been only my skill, eagerness to succeed and up-frontness that put everything back into place, and each recovery was topped off by better success than the last.

My rating for success has changed through the years the most. I had a few years that I was doing over a mil a year in business, (that does NOT mean I made a mil) and although there was a ton of money in the bank, my life was miserable.
Now Im just an old dude (41) and am happy making somewhere around 150K/yr these last 3- 4 years, but Im happy. I get to spend time with my kids and just like VemontPainter says, when my arm is tired, Im dam happier that I can walk away for a few days and enjoy life.
Things are changing fast in the housing market right now, might be years before it recovers, everyone I know but me around here is just "schedule-less". It's only funny to me because most of them just think I have the craziest business model in the world and I think its the best ever!

 

[GMack]

It does sound like you've been around the block more than once UglyJoe and I have a ton of respect for that.

I'm still wondering though, are you saying that, instead of trying to sell at higher prices, I should come down on my numbers in the interest of getting bigger?

Understand, I'm not looking to judge you one way or another. Just trying to clarify what your saying is your business model.

Thanks again, Mack

 

[uglyjoe]

It does sound like you've been around the block more than once UglyJoe and I have a ton of respect for that.

I'm still wondering though, are you saying that, instead of trying to sell at higher prices, I should come down on my numbers in the interest of getting bigger?

Understand, I'm not looking to judge you one way or another. Just trying to clarify what your saying is your business model.

Thanks again, Mack

Well, sorta. My prices are not considerate of my competitors. My basic business model is. To sum up:

• I only work for homeowners
• Never Work for General Contractors
• Always work inside (with exception to former clients that only want me to paint their house outside which i carry a summer team for)
• Try to stay within 20 miles of home
• never do new construction

My pricing model I keep very close in a forum like this because its hard for some to get their little heads around. But I charge accordingly for the work performed.

• always give the highest level of workmanship, even if you are doing it for free. God forbid!
• earn your referrals through workmanship, attitude and cleanliness.
• find your niche market and make it work for you.

Mine niche' "aint" teamcolorspainting.. that was an Idea that didnt work out, but it's what I want you to see. Again, I am very guarded in any forum like this.

 

[vermontpainter]

My pricing model I keep very close in a forum like this because its hard for some to get their little heads around.

This is kinda condescending. You might be surprised at the intellectual capacities of alot of these guys.


Mine niche' "aint" teamcolorspainting.. that was an Idea that didnt work out, but it's what I want you to see. Again, I am very guarded in any forum like this.

But it sure is enigmatic! :shifty:

 

[Brian]

I think that the amount of paint one has personally applied is totally irrelevant to running a paint contracting company. I've owned a paint contracting company for 22+ years.

I have probably applied less than 1,000 gallons of paint. I painted actively for 2 years. I hated it. I love what paint can do. I love owning and running a paint contracting company. I hate putting paint on the walls.

Despite my lack of putting paint on the walls, my painters call me when they have problems. The reason is quite simple-- while they are painting 1 house, I have 3 other jobs going on. And for each job I have going on, I've looked at 3 others. So, for each job one of my crews is on, I've looked at/ dealt with/ etc. 12 other jobs. I gain more experience in a week than they gain in a month.

If Gary has a problem, I know about it. If Armando has a problem I know about it, but Gary probably doesn't. If Bill has a problem, I know about it, but Gary and Armando probably don't. If Jose has a problem... well, you probably get the idea.

By having multiple crews I learn far more than I ever could if I was running one crew and applying most of the paint.

If you are putting paint on the wall, you are limited in how much paint you can apply in a day/ week/ month/ year. That is a finite number. If you are paying others to put paint on the wall, you are really only limited by how much paint you can sell. That is, at least theoretically, infinite.

Brian Phillips

 

[uglyjoe]

My pricing model I keep very close in a forum like this because its hard for some to get their little heads around.

This is kinda condescending. You might be surprised at the intellectual capacities of alot of these guys.


Mine niche' "aint" teamcolorspainting.. that was an Idea that didnt work out, but it's what I want you to see. Again, I am very guarded in any forum like this.

But it sure is enigmatic! :shifty:

I said some, not all..

and I prefer, "obscure"

 

[vermontpainter]

I said some, not all..

and I prefer, "obscure"

Obscure works. I wouldn't worry too much about anyone on here looking to steal your playbook.

God I wish ******** would wander through here and lob one of those big fluttering knuckleballs...we sure could use it

 

[Dave Mac]

Hello, Greg and welcome aboard, great thread you started. I usually do estimates on the spot and go over it with the client right their, on the spot.( I hate having something hanging over my head, and have to get back to). When I go over the estimate and everything in my est packet, I usually a responce from them like wow," you are by far the most profesional" and a lot of HO dont want to deal with the station wagon bandit, so they realize why my price is higher. So I sell high quality, high price, and a professional service. All on the spot. 75% of my work is from referall or repeat buisness.

thanks
dave mac

 

[Brian]

My pricing model I keep very close in a forum like this because its hard for some to get their little heads around. But I charge accordingly for the work performed.

I am going to assume that someone with a screen name like uglyjoe will be able to handle a little constructive criticism. If not, then you should change your screen name. (That's constructive criticism #1.)

Constructive criticism #2: Comments like "little heads" can be insulting to those of us who know what that means. Those who don't won't be insulted. But then maybe that's your point.

Constructive criticism #3: A forum like this is for sharing. It doesn't mean that you need to give away the farm. I've been involved in numerous forums over the years, and to be honest, I don't think you have anything to say that hasn't been said a dozen (or more) times before. I seldom write anything I haven't read before on one of these forums. I might phrase it differently (and I'd like to think perhaps better), but I express few ideas that are completely original to me. Since I have learned so much from these forums, I think it is only fair and reasonable to reciprocate.

Constructive criticism #4: There are plenty of surfaces out there to paint. There are more customers out there than you could ever begin to service. So what if you share a few ideas? Muddy waters often appear very deep.

Constructive criticism #5: You sow what you reap. If you come here to impress, you will be disappointed. If you come here to learn and share, then you can thrive.

Constructive criticism #6: 90% of the people starting a business in 2008 will be out of business by 2013. 90% of the people who started a business in 2003 will be out of business by the end of this year. In the past 10 years I’ve seen lots of people talk the talk, and disappear in a few months. (Check the first months of this forum for evidence.) In Texas we have a saying-- "Big hat and no cattle". That refers to someone who talks big, but has nothing to back it up. Show, don’t tell.

So uglyjoe, the bottom line in my book is, don’t be ugly, Joe.

Brian Phillips

 

[uglyjoe]

again, Mack, sorry these guys hijacked your thread to flame out on me. and thanks for the pm!

 

[vermontpainter]

again, Mack, sorry these guys hijacked your thread to flame out on me. and thanks for the pm!

Maybe you're not quite getting the concept of the thread. If you spend some time reviewing other pre-existing examples you will find that they are often discussions involving multiple people and the discussion evolves as the content continues to be built.

Many of your contributions that I have read are very concrete about your opinion of yourself and your business but vague and oblique in specific points that help to develop the topic - of course culminating with your proclamations on this thread that you have an amazing business model that you cant share because you are afraid that the rest of us, likely all in non-competing markets, will steal it - that is, if we are intelligent enough to understand it. What are you painting offices for the CIA?

 

[GMack]

I usually do estimates on the spot and go over it with the client right their, on the spot

Dave, I believe I've seen you around on another board . . . I've actually always wanted to do it this way but never really felt totally comfortable sitting there at the kitchen table doing all the math.

Almost nobody does this and no doubt you are coming off looking very professional. What do you do when you need to hit a tough project with a PITA charge? What do you call this number while the customer is sitting right there watching you punch the calculator?

Mack