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Hey all,
Im a remodeling contractor and we are taking on more cabinet painting. I’m trying to make this simple for myself.

I have a job right now spraying raw MDF panels from a company called Semi-Handmade. Hardwood edge banding and flat MDF panels. I’m planning to use Kem Aqua Plus with the surfacer.

i have another job that’s a repaint. My plan for that job is BIN or SW shellac primer (cleaning and sanding prior to priming) and Breakthrough Satin. I believe i can get HIGH VOC here in South Carolina.

basically my conclusion is KEM AQUA for new unfinished cabinetry and BIN/Breakthrough for repaints.

Im unaware of a BM dealer in my area. But I have a good SW and PPG rep. Am i thinking right or wrong with my cabinet painting ventures?

thanks!
 

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Kem aqua will work on repaints, but SW won't warranty it.

BIN gets brittle, over time. I know a lot of guys swear on it, because they don't get bleed through and short-term it looks good. If I was doing my own personal kitchen, I'd go with oil primer.
 

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Kem aqua will work on repaints, but SW won't warranty it.

BIN gets brittle, over time. I know a lot of guys swear on it, because they don't get bleed through and short-term it looks good. If I was doing my own personal kitchen, I'd go with oil primer.
So a standard oil primer for repaint but kem Aqua instead of Breakthrough?

I like the idea of kem Aqua because of durability and quick recoats
 

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I like bin as a primer for cabinets (never had an issue with it) and use Breakthrough for the finish coats. Being that we're both in SC I can tell you for sure that you can get the good stuff here. They sell both and they're both in the same looking can so be sure to tell them you want the V50 Breakthrough when ordering it.
 

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The Kem Aqua looks like a great product, but imagine a little more fussy than Breakthrough.
Spray only I imagine, so if your doing the bases on site, keep that in mind. TDS say Industrial shop use only.. Im also not a fan of oil primers and certainly wouldn't use it under the Kem Aqua unless tds says it Ok.
 

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"Tell me if I'm right or wrong." Ok. I can see that for some questions. But generally speaking, this is PaintTalk. My Jewish mother-in-law likes to say "you get 10 Jews in a room and you get 12 different opinions." I'm pretty sure it's like that with painters too (Jewish or not). :giggle:

Be prepared for a fruitful discussion during which you'll learn a lot and be confused all at once and at the end you'll follow your own best judgment (and hope that it works).
 

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"Tell me if I'm right or wrong." Ok. I can see that for some questions. But generally speaking, this is PaintTalk. My Jewish mother-in-law likes to say "you get 10 Jews in a room and you get 12 different opinions." I'm pretty sure it's like that with painters too (Jewish or not). :giggle:

Be prepared for a fruitful discussion during which you'll learn a lot and be confused all at once and at the end you'll follow your own best judgment (and hope that it works).
Haha!

i completely get it. I’m a carpenter by trade but now GC my jobs and have a couple employees. One is a painter but he was always a grunt laborer before and doesn’t have much product knowledge.

We recently painted a large kitchen and it became clear we needed a different game plan. We used a standard run of the mill primer water based (After cleaning) and sherwin Williams pre cat epoxy ( water based) and it peeled like crazy.

needless to say we had to sand and repaint and finally got good adhesion. Long story, but I’m taking the lead now and wanting to make sure we get professional results in the future. I called my SW rep... and he was like.... “oh you needed an oil primer” oh.... thanks for tellling me now LOL :ROFLMAO:
 

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Haha!

i completely get it. I’m a carpenter by trade but now GC my jobs and have a couple employees. One is a painter but he was always a grunt laborer before and doesn’t have much product knowledge.

We recently painted a large kitchen and it became clear we needed a different game plan. We used a standard run of the mill primer water based (After cleaning) and sherwin Williams pre cat epoxy ( water based) and it peeled like crazy.

needless to say we had to sand and repaint and finally got good adhesion. Long story, but I’m taking the lead now and wanting to make sure we get professional results in the future. I called my SW rep... and he was like.... “oh you needed an oil primer” oh.... thanks for tellling me now LOL :ROFLMAO:
You don't just need an oil primer, you need an adhesion primer. There are many water-based adhesion primers out there that are fantastic.
Stix,Uma, gripper, Kilz has a new one too that I'm going to try. For new wood though alot of these specialty paints have thier own primers that will be compatible with one another.
I've recently switched to BIN shellac as it covers all my bases and seems to adhere better than anything else I've tried.
 

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BIN is the only product I’ve encountered, where the use of which had been expressly excluded in written notations provided with approved product lists prepared by an architectural specifier for new construction finishing and/or refinishing . BIN’s exclusion was due to longer term failures experienced by the architectural firm who initially prepared the specs.

It was engrained in me very early on by architectural specifiers who adhered to MPI standards that BIN had no place in new construction finishing and/or repaints aside from sealing knots or stain blocking, only when all other options had been exhausted, due to BIN serving as a poor foundation on wood substrates for future repaints, often resulting in failures in the longer term, some of which can be catastrophic in nature resulting in complete removal for subsequent repaints.

I’ve never used BIN as a result, heeding the specifier’s advice, except for a few miscellaneous items and furnishings on my own home, most of which to some degree, after 10 years, give or take, experienced what I would consider both unacceptable & excessive cracking along the grain in areas, or exhibited complete adhesion loss, much of which had to be removed due to not being able to achieve a sound edge when prepping for repainting earlier this year. It became very brittle and flaky with age, and based on the one time use, I’d tend to agree with the specifier that it’s not a great product, and that there are certainly better options.

Moore’s 024 and it’s predecessor had been my go to bonding primer for repaints, and 024 and/or 217 and it’s predecessor being my go to primer for bare wood. Aside from industrial or specialty finishing systems which require specific primers, I’ve used nothing other than the 024 & 217 since the inception of my business. From what I gather, both products are being nixed in my area due to new VOC legislation which is kicking in at the turn of the New Year. I picked up a gallon of the new Moore’s oil AP the other day for my own home but haven’t crack the lid yet. It was by far the heaviest gallon of primer I’ve encountered in a long time.
 

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Never said I didn't like them. Just don't trust them as a bonding primer. Oh and they suck to work with..Great for new wood though..
BIN is the only product I’ve encountered, where the use of which had been expressly excluded in written notations provided with approved product lists prepared by an architectural specifier for new construction finishing and/or refinishing . BIN’s exclusion was due to longer term failures experienced by the architectural firm who initially prepared the specs.

It was engrained in me very early on by architectural specifiers who adhered to MPI standards that BIN had no place in new construction finishing and/or repaints aside from sealing knots or stain blocking, only when all other options had been exhausted, due to BIN serving as a poor foundation on wood substrates for future repaints, often resulting in failures in the longer term, some of which can be catastrophic in nature resulting in complete removal for subsequent repaints.

I’ve never used BIN as a result, heeding the specifier’s advice, except for a few miscellaneous items and furnishings on my own home, most of which to some degree, after 10 years, give or take, experienced what I would consider both unacceptable & excessive cracking along the grain in areas, or exhibited complete adhesion loss, much of which had to be removed due to not being able to achieve a sound edge when prepping for repainting earlier this year. It became very brittle and flaky with age, and based on the one time use, I’d tend to agree with the specifier that it’s not a great product, and that there are certainly better options.

Moore’s 024 and it’s predecessor had been my go to bonding primer for repaints, and 024 and/or 217 and it’s predecessor being my go to primer for bare wood. Aside from industrial or specialty finishing systems which require specific primers, I’ve used nothing other than the 024 & 217 since the inception of my business. From what I gather, both products are being nixed in my area due to new VOC legislation which is kicking in at the turn of the New Year. I picked up a gallon of the new Moore’s oil AP the other day for my own home but haven’t crack the lid yet. It was by far the heaviest gallon of primer I’ve encountered in a long time.
Any thoughts on using some of the DTMs like P06 in place of 024? Not available in my area but I assume the c085 will still need to be thinned to use properly.
 

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Long term exposure to BIN is also a health issue. It eats through organic vapour cartridges like crazy, plus it absorbs through your eyeballs. You need one of those full-face masks of you use it a lot.
 

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Have any of your tried Sherwin Williams Extreme Bond? How would that compare to other water Bourne adhesion primers?
 

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Any thoughts on using some of the DTMs like P06 in place of 024? Not available in my area but I assume the c085 will still need to be thinned to use properly.
Im sure it would work great. Not a fan of spraying oil primers. Although the acrylic dtm p04 may be an option. Just wondering how it would bond to an old finish. ?Plus no tannin hide. Man, do I have to go back to spraying oil based again..:cry:
 

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Long term exposure to BIN is also a health issue. It eats through organic vapour cartridges like crazy, plus it absorbs through your eyeballs. You need one of those full-face masks of you use it a lot.
Ya, but let's be honest. All of those primers are nasty and are getting absorbed through your eyeballs and fingers. Not just BIN. I try to wear gloves and ventilate well..
 

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Not a fan of spraying oil primers. Although the acrylic dtm p04 may be an option. Just wondering how it would bond to an old finish. ?
BIN is the only product I’ve encountered, where the use of which had been expressly excluded in written notations provided with approved product lists prepared by an architectural specifier for new construction finishing and/or refinishing . BIN’s exclusion was due to longer term failures experienced by the architectural firm who initially prepared the specs.

It was engrained in me very early on by architectural specifiers who adhered to MPI standards that BIN had no place in new construction finishing and/or repaints aside from sealing knots or stain blocking, only when all other options had been exhausted, due to BIN serving as a poor foundation on wood substrates for future repaints, often resulting in failures in the longer term, some of which can be catastrophic in nature resulting in complete removal for subsequent repaints.

I’ve never used BIN as a result, heeding the specifier’s advice, except for a few miscellaneous items and furnishings on my own home, most of which to some degree, after 10 years, give or take, experienced what I would consider both unacceptable & excessive cracking along the grain in areas, or exhibited complete adhesion loss, much of which had to be removed due to not being able to achieve a sound edge when prepping for repainting earlier this year. It became very brittle and flaky with age, and based on the one time use, I’d tend to agree with the specifier that it’s not a great product, and that there are certainly better options.

Moore’s 024 and it’s predecessor had been my go to bonding primer for repaints, and 024 and/or 217 and it’s predecessor being my go to primer for bare wood. Aside from industrial or specialty finishing systems which require specific primers, I’ve used nothing other than the 024 & 217 since the inception of my business. From what I gather, both products are being nixed in my area due to new VOC legislation which is kicking in at the turn of the New Year. I picked up a gallon of the new Moore’s oil AP the other day for my own home but haven’t crack the lid yet. It was by far the heaviest gallon of primer I’ve encountered in a long time.
Always gotta rain on the party with your techy talk. Damn you. 🤣
 

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Hey all,
Im a remodeling contractor and we are taking on more cabinet painting. I’m trying to make this simple for myself.

I have a job right now spraying raw MDF panels from a company called Semi-Handmade. Hardwood edge banding and flat MDF panels. I’m planning to use Kem Aqua Plus with the surfacer.

i have another job that’s a repaint. My plan for that job is BIN or SW shellac primer (cleaning and sanding prior to priming) and Breakthrough Satin. I believe i can get HIGH VOC here in South Carolina.

basically my conclusion is KEM AQUA for new unfinished cabinetry and BIN/Breakthrough for repaints.

Im unaware of a BM dealer in my area. But I have a good SW and PPG rep. Am i thinking right or wrong with my cabinet painting ventures?

thanks!
This is pretty much the system we use all the time. If lacquer is the choice, we use Kem Aqua Plus, not the regular Kem Aqua. It is an upgraded version. We did spray it over shellac all the time with no issues, but so many people on here talk about it failing in the long term, we have started using the Kem Aqua Plus primer instead, which S-W calls surfacer. The surfacer also locks out stains and tannins. The Kem Aqua Plus can also receive clear top coats where the regular Kem Aqua cannot. If you are familiar with a sprayer, I think the Kem Aqua is a breeze. If we are going to brush the cabinet boxes instead of spray, we use the V50 Breakthrough. I actually find the Breakthrough more difficult to work with than the Kem Aqua Plus, but the end result has a feel and handling much like lacquer. We just had a problem getting the V50 Breakthrough though. According to my store, due to COVID-19, PPG has reduced production of certain products and the V50 Breakthrough was one of them. They scrubbed the country for me trying to get one gallon of a white base and couldn't do it. He said it should be available in late November but couldn't confirm an actual date. We do use Kem Aqua Plus on repaints, but we basically remove the previous finish before we start. I see many videos of guys who go in and start spraying lacquer on repaints, but most lacquers are limited to 5 mil total film thickness, and by not reducing the original film, you are exceeding the maximum recommended by the manufacturer. I think it probably is the same deal as using BIN though, where most of the time you will probably be fine, but you are going to have a job or two that fail because you didn't follow manufacturer specs and they aren't going to help you. My reputation is to important to play the numbers game and factor in a failure or two as a cost of doing business. This is why we always sand them down to the wood when using lacquer. So in essence, they are new doors. The only lacquer product I personally know of that can go beyond 5 mils is Melisi, which I believe is limited to 10 mils.
 
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