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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've got white bondx we've been using for well adhered broad soffits and trim that are very sheltered from sun and elements and have almost no peeling. we cleaned the surfaces carefully but they still will benefit from an appearance standpoint with a coat. Desiring not to create any peeling on these unbroken surfaces from our new coat we are using the water based polyurethane bonding primer and then following with Duration within 24 hours which is the recoat limit suggested to take some advantage of chemical curing together of the two coats.

on an enclosed porch in the back of this brick building there are clapboards installed about 25 years ago that were double coated front and back with slight rose tinted solid color stain and ends painted as well. short distances means there are no open field clapboard joints and this is in incredibly good shape. a little chalking from the stain but it hasn't faded that bad as has cleaned up pretty well.


This is right on the bubble of good enough to be left with no new coat, but because we would otherwise need to painstakingly cut in at the corner boards and for slight update to very minorly faded color we're contemplating putting a single coat on. I would like the advantages of the polyurethane grip primer and kind of have the feeling that with the clean and dainty lines of these clapboards that were painted before installation and with relatively light vehicle and not a lot of build-up or any pulls, it would be better not to follow up with a second coat but to tint the primer.

The existing finish is flat. The primer might have the slighest eggshell look to it but basically fine as a finish. Are there any serious contraindications that, without an overcoat, the primer could be subject to more UV damage or something i'm not contemplating, and has anyone had any experience tinting one of these water based urethane primers.

thanks,

brian
 

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I've got white bondx we've been using for well adhered broad soffits and trim that are very sheltered from sun and elements and have almost no peeling. we cleaned the surfaces carefully but they still will benefit from an appearance standpoint with a coat. Desiring not to create any peeling on these unbroken surfaces from our new coat we are using the water based polyurethane bonding primer and then following with Duration within 24 hours which is the recoat limit suggested to take some advantage of chemical curing together of the two coats.

on an enclosed porch in the back of this brick building there are clapboards installed about 25 years ago that were double coated front and back with slight rose tinted solid color stain and ends painted as well. short distances means there are no open field clapboard joints and this is in incredibly good shape. a little chalking from the stain but it hasn't faded that bad as has cleaned up pretty well.


This is right on the bubble of good enough to be left with no new coat, but because we would otherwise need to painstakingly cut in at the corner boards and for slight update to very minorly faded color we're contemplating putting a single coat on. I would like the advantages of the polyurethane grip primer and kind of have the feeling that with the clean and dainty lines of these clapboards that were painted before installation and with relatively light vehicle and not a lot of build-up or any pulls, it would be better not to follow up with a second coat but to tint the primer.

The existing finish is flat. The primer might have the slighest eggshell look to it but basically fine as a finish. Are there any serious contraindications that, without an overcoat, the primer could be subject to more UV damage or something i'm not contemplating, and has anyone had any experience tinting one of these water based urethane primers.

thanks,

brian
That sentence puzzles me. On what basis do you feel the primer would be fine as a finish coat - especially if your thread is asking about any adverse issues as a result of using it as such?
Primers are never designed to be stand alone products and as Woodco has suggested, no primer and then a single coat of the finish product would be more acceptable than a coat of primer but nothing else.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
@cocomonkeynuts These are areas that have no peeling and 2 good coats of stain. we've cleaned them carefully without too much dirt or shadow scrubbed in and, as I said, could almost leave them alone but am tempted to give a coat for freshest look and to change the detail at the end where the clapboards meet the trim instead of cutting in. (these were all prepainted before being nailed up so there was no cut in at installation. just touchover of nail holes.)

with the original holding so well I like the idea of using a grip style paint but I haven't seen that meme in finish/top coat that i'm aware of. I don't want to put on the layer that starts peeling and @Woodco since the two coats of stain are long cured and there is little chance of getting any actual engagement with wood grain and pores or chemical bond to previous 25 year cured stain with new stain, I have the notion that even if using a 'stain', i'm really just painting vs. staining.

@RH I'm aware primer is not designed as a topcoat but where i'm using it as a grip product and not as sealer i'm not convinced it would be inadequate, but i'm open to what it lacks chemically to make a good top coat if I'm otherwise satisfied with the coverage and even appearance of the finish. I speculated that it could have less inhibition against UV or inappropriate qualities, but might still be sufficient. I'm willing to be talked out of it., or to add a top coat (albeit not wanting something thick like duration) within the time frame to take advantage of chemical bonding between new curing layers.

Or another way to slice this where there is no peeling or need for spot priming and there is good remaining coverage but a mildly mottled appearance, is there a finish coat that has high grip properties incorporated? There are plenty of top coats that call themselves 'self' priming, but I'm looking for that extra adhesion purportedly offered by polyurethane high grip formula which i've only seen as primer.

thanks,

brian
 

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@cocomonkeynuts These are areas that have no peeling and 2 good coats of stain. we've cleaned them carefully without too much dirt or shadow scrubbed in and, as I said, could almost leave them alone but am tempted to give a coat for freshest look and to change the detail at the end where the clapboards meet the trim instead of cutting in. (these were all prepainted before being nailed up so there was no cut in at installation. just touchover of nail holes.)

with the original holding so well I like the idea of using a grip style paint but I haven't seen that meme in finish/top coat that i'm aware of. I don't want to put on the layer that starts peeling and @Woodco since the two coats of stain are long cured and there is little chance of getting any actual engagement with wood grain and pores or chemical bond to previous 25 year cured stain with new stain, I have the notion that even if using a 'stain', i'm really just painting vs. staining.

@RH I'm aware primer is not designed as a topcoat but where i'm using it as a grip product and not as sealer i'm not convinced it would be inadequate, but i'm open to what it lacks chemically to make a good top coat if I'm otherwise satisfied with the coverage and even appearance of the finish. I speculated that it could have less inhibition against UV or inappropriate qualities, but might still be sufficient. I'm willing to be talked out of it., or to add a top coat (albeit not wanting something thick like duration) within the time frame to take advantage of chemical bonding between new curing layers.

Or another way to slice this where there is no peeling or need for spot priming and there is good remaining coverage but a mildly mottled appearance, is there a finish coat that has high grip properties incorporated? There are plenty of top coats that call themselves 'self' priming, but I'm looking for that extra adhesion purportedly offered by polyurethane high grip formula which i've only seen as primer.

thanks,

brian
Well guys like you will keep me in buissness so carry on :cool:
 

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I've got white bondx we've been using for well adhered broad soffits and trim that are very sheltered from sun and elements and have almost no peeling. we cleaned the surfaces carefully but they still will benefit from an appearance standpoint with a coat. Desiring not to create any peeling on these unbroken surfaces from our new coat we are using the water based polyurethane bonding primer and then following with Duration within 24 hours which is the recoat limit suggested to take some advantage of chemical curing together of the two coats.

on an enclosed porch in the back of this brick building there are clapboards installed about 25 years ago that were double coated front and back with slight rose tinted solid color stain and ends painted as well. short distances means there are no open field clapboard joints and this is in incredibly good shape. a little chalking from the stain but it hasn't faded that bad as has cleaned up pretty well.


This is right on the bubble of good enough to be left with no new coat, but because we would otherwise need to painstakingly cut in at the corner boards and for slight update to very minorly faded color we're contemplating putting a single coat on. I would like the advantages of the polyurethane grip primer and kind of have the feeling that with the clean and dainty lines of these clapboards that were painted before installation and with relatively light vehicle and not a lot of build-up or any pulls, it would be better not to follow up with a second coat but to tint the primer.

The existing finish is flat. The primer might have the slighest eggshell look to it but basically fine as a finish. Are there any serious contraindications that, without an overcoat, the primer could be subject to more UV damage or something i'm not contemplating, and has anyone had any experience tinting one of these water based urethane primers.

thanks,

brian
If I am understanding correctly, some of the soffits have solid color stain, are in good condition, and not peeling. Why not continue with a latex solid stain? Perhaps I’m missing something.

in regards to “painstakingly cutting in”…can this really be a good excuse for not doing something? Pictures might help clarify the situation. Please post some pics for better responses.
 

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@cocomonkeynuts These are areas that have no peeling and 2 good coats of stain. we've cleaned them carefully without too much dirt or shadow scrubbed in and, as I said, could almost leave them alone but am tempted to give a coat for freshest look and to change the detail at the end where the clapboards meet the trim instead of cutting in. (these were all prepainted before being nailed up so there was no cut in at installation. just touchover of nail holes.)

with the original holding so well I like the idea of using a grip style paint but I haven't seen that meme in finish/top coat that i'm aware of. I don't want to put on the layer that starts peeling and @Woodco since the two coats of stain are long cured and there is little chance of getting any actual engagement with wood grain and pores or chemical bond to previous 25 year cured stain with new stain, I have the notion that even if using a 'stain', i'm really just painting vs. staining.

@RH I'm aware primer is not designed as a topcoat but where i'm using it as a grip product and not as sealer i'm not convinced it would be inadequate, but i'm open to what it lacks chemically to make a good top coat if I'm otherwise satisfied with the coverage and even appearance of the finish. I speculated that it could have less inhibition against UV or inappropriate qualities, but might still be sufficient. I'm willing to be talked out of it., or to add a top coat (albeit not wanting something thick like duration) within the time frame to take advantage of chemical bonding between new curing layers.

Or another way to slice this where there is no peeling or need for spot priming and there is good remaining coverage but a mildly mottled appearance, is there a finish coat that has high grip properties incorporated? There are plenty of top coats that call themselves 'self' priming, but I'm looking for that extra adhesion purportedly offered by polyurethane high grip formula which i've only seen as primer.

thanks,

brian
Brian - I appreciate you not getting bent out of shape because we are questioning your possible decision to go the way you are describing. We are not trying to bust your chops, just struggling (well, I am) to figure out the benefits of only using the primer, no top coat.
We get quite a few threads/posts where guys are trying to circumvent SOPs and most of us who have been doing this for awhile tend to do things by the book rather than get creative by using products in ways they were not designed to be used - and we will invariably recommend to others that they do the same.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
@RH one can't ask for advice and be peeved when they get it .

Im not out to outsmart professionals (although ive been painting for 50 years it is maybe 20 % of our portfilio and it is all in house so we are responsible to ourselves for the results , which doesn't mean were out to cut corners or get a bad job but that im trying to understand the chemistries of the different products so we can use them coordinate with their properties if occasionally off label, kind of like doctors prescribing off label.

If all went well, ive attached a photo that showsthewear on white painted trim vs. the solid atained siding and showing the cut detail.

You'll notice that there is a littleof the body color on the trim which is because they stained the cut ends and this resulted in a little rubbing off

My doreman can cut qith the best of em and we often pride ourselves oncarefuloffsets, but in rhis case it is a relatively uninterestingwnclosedporch with 20 ft long corner boards on many corners and the shadowing really does not accentuate whether trim is actuallycut againat the clap oards and he auggestedmight be oneof few jobs to consider carrying the body color onto the first narrow adjacent trim surface .

Were going to try a aide that can't be awen qell and decide if that is satisfactory. But with the virtually undisturbed paint on the body claps i wanted to use something with as much grip as possible which is what lead to inquiring about the best current chemistry and at least that most apparenrly promotedby paint cos is primer. I get that from the 'problem'
Primer standpoint but im in the "why isnt every job a problem" mode in the sense of wanting the best coating adhesion over an unbroken previously painted surface and really only needing 1 coat since its going over previous double coat. Although im open to hearing that adhesion primer followed by top coat is a better recipe against any failureof rhis overcoat although i still figure a single coat with the best adhesion chemistry might be sufficient for long life. And since i havent found any adhesion focused top coat im blue skying tinted primer. Also open to hearing adhesion primer ain't all its cracked up tobe and another coat of solid color stain or flat exterior paint will stick fine.

Thanks

Brian
 

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@RH one can't ask for advice and be peeved when they get it .

Im not out to outsmart professionals (although ive been painting for 50 years it is maybe 20 % of our portfilio and it is all in house so we are responsible to ourselves for the results , which doesn't mean were out to cut corners or get a bad job but that im trying to understand the chemistries of the different products so we can use them coordinate with their properties if occasionally off label, kind of like doctors prescribing off label.

If all went well, ive attached a photo that showsthewear on white painted trim vs. the solid atained siding and showing the cut detail.

You'll notice that there is a littleof the body color on the trim which is because they stained the cut ends and this resulted in a little rubbing off

My doreman can cut qith the best of em and we often pride ourselves oncarefuloffsets, but in rhis case it is a relatively uninterestingwnclosedporch with 20 ft long corner boards on many corners and the shadowing really does not accentuate whether trim is actuallycut againat the clap oards and he auggestedmight be oneof few jobs to consider carrying the body color onto the first narrow adjacent trim surface .

Were going to try a aide that can't be awen qell and decide if that is satisfactory. But with the virtually undisturbed paint on the body claps i wanted to use something with as much grip as possible which is what lead to inquiring about the best current chemistry and at least that most apparenrly promotedby paint cos is primer. I get that from the 'problem'
Primer standpoint but im in the "why isnt every job a problem" mode in the sense of wanting the best coating adhesion over an unbroken previously painted surface and really only needing 1 coat since its going over previous double coat. Although im open to hearing that adhesion primer followed by top coat is a better recipe against any failureof rhis overcoat although i still figure a single coat with the best adhesion chemistry might be sufficient for long life. And since i havent found any adhesion focused top coat im blue skying tinted primer. Also open to hearing adhesion primer ain't all its cracked up tobe and another coat of solid color stain or flat exterior paint will stick fine.

Thanks

Brian
if it’s solid stain, stick with latex solid stain- it is self-priming, and is not prone to peeling.

Get a new brush for the job (I like a 2- 2 1/2” Chinex Dale for that job).
Start at the top, and cut the inside edge. Roll the face, tip it if needed.

This should be within your skill set if you are a 50 year veteran Painter. Make sure to say hello in the welcome page, and introduce yourself. Would be interested to hear what accounts for the other 80% of your portfolio.
 

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@RH one can't ask for advice and be peeved when they get it .

Im not out to outsmart professionals (although ive been painting for 50 years it is maybe 20 % of our portfilio and it is all in house so we are responsible to ourselves for the results , which doesn't mean were out to cut corners or get a bad job but that im trying to understand the chemistries of the different products so we can use them coordinate with their properties if occasionally off label, kind of like doctors prescribing off label.

If all went well, ive attached a photo that showsthewear on white painted trim vs. the solid atained siding and showing the cut detail.

You'll notice that there is a littleof the body color on the trim which is because they stained the cut ends and this resulted in a little rubbing off

My doreman can cut qith the best of em and we often pride ourselves oncarefuloffsets, but in rhis case it is a relatively uninterestingwnclosedporch with 20 ft long corner boards on many corners and the shadowing really does not accentuate whether trim is actuallycut againat the clap oards and he auggestedmight be oneof few jobs to consider carrying the body color onto the first narrow adjacent trim surface .

Were going to try a aide that can't be awen qell and decide if that is satisfactory. But with the virtually undisturbed paint on the body claps i wanted to use something with as much grip as possible which is what lead to inquiring about the best current chemistry and at least that most apparenrly promotedby paint cos is primer. I get that from the 'problem'
Primer standpoint but im in the "why isnt every job a problem" mode in the sense of wanting the best coating adhesion over an unbroken previously painted surface and really only needing 1 coat since its going over previous double coat. Although im open to hearing that adhesion primer followed by top coat is a better recipe against any failureof rhis overcoat although i still figure a single coat with the best adhesion chemistry might be sufficient for long life. And since i havent found any adhesion focused top coat im blue skying tinted primer. Also open to hearing adhesion primer ain't all its cracked up tobe and another coat of solid color stain or flat exterior paint will stick fine.

Thanks

Brian
here is what we do:
scrape back what you can. apply shipnshore. lightly sand smooth with 120 or so. one coat latex solid stain.
 

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@RH one can't ask for advice and be peeved when they get it .

Thanks

Brian
Yeah, you'd think that wouldn't you? But it's amazing how many people come here looking for advice and then argue against all of it. Kinda makes you wonder why they bothered to seek out other opnions in the first place.

A classic was a guy who was thinking about naming his business "Pink Panda Painting". He had mock ups of his business logo, cards, shirts, even vehicle wrappings. Most of us were not impressed and told him so but apparently he was pretty heavily vested in it and really only wanted people to agree with him and stroke his ego by telling him how great an idea it all was. When that didn't happen, he sort of went off the deep end and some here resonded in kind and it got rather heated and nasty. Eventually he had to be banned and that was the last we ever heard from him. Good times!

(He now probably owns and operates some multi national franchise painting company based on his PPP model.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
@finishesbykevyn
will try to simplify.

have undisturbed 25 year old 4 side (6 if you count ends) solid stained clapboard body that has never been recoated but shows no wear or surface breaks, only dirt that we have mostly successfully washed off to even tone and slight color fade.

if I recoat to brighten this modest color fade and even slight mottling and to move the trim color edge while recoating the trim, want to use the highest grip product possible over clean cured unbroken paint (eer solid stain) . My understanding is that is the technology embodied in the polyurethane grip primers.

While I understand these are "problem primers" are maybe specialty products to avoid sanding and for difficult surfaces, e.g. pressure treated, I have to admit I wonder why I wouldn't employ the technology most of the time given that the pricing is not extreme.

For example, I have lots of folks who tell me how their diesel engines start no problem in the cold, but I use engine heaters; not because the engine won't start cold, but because it's a better result for the engine not to start it cold–even if it would do so. So 'grip' paint seems like a belts and suspenders approach even where traditional products like solid color stain are, as @Holland notes, "self priming" and not particularly prone to peeling.

Where I have a job that seems to peel no matter what in specific areas, given perhaps lack of back priming and various moisture issues driven by either migration of humidity from inside the building envelope or exterior moisture and sun assault, I haven't found that it makes that much difference how crazy I go over using the best coatings, because the peeling is driven by building problems and often related to failure of undercoats rather than the latest coat. But where, as here, I have virtually unblemished surfaces from an adhesion perspecitive I'm contemplating focusing on the best adhesion product since I got 25 years out of the existing system without failure but I can't duplicate that because that solid stain was applied to uncoated clapboards.

Not finding any top coats with this 'grip' technology -except maybe really extravagant catalyzed marine coatings like "awlgrip"- I'm wondering why ,or whether I might try tinted grip primer as a finish and what are the contraindications aside from the boilerplate manufacturers recommendations. I don't have a concern about warranty for the job. We own the building, and this addition is on the back of the house, not particularly visible and somewhat pedestrian contemporary minimalist trim compared to front of house complex siding and trim we often encounter. So i can experiment although my whole point in experimenting is to get a good job even if it might be considered outside the norm of industry practice.

I'm getting the basic vibe that that would make me a mad scientist. I can appreciate that many pros here necessarily follow manufacturers recommendation and their own experiences within the range of practice those recommendations allow. I don't mean to disavow testimony of careful approaches they have been successfully employed. But I'm pushing theoretical boundaries and asking for a brief suspension of disbelief to critically examine the proposition. Although I won't get perfect side by side because of sun and weather exposure, this has 7 faces (which is why theres is so much cut in of corner boards even with generally limited trim, so I could try one or two faces of 'grip-primer finish' as a test compared to solid stain.

hope that is not totally confusing or brings together the concepts I have expressed in the disparate interstices of this thread so far thanks.

brian
 

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They have plenty of topcoats available that have superior 'grip.' in a nutshell, most anything urethane modified will stick like crazy, not that many products are gonna have an issue sticking to exterior stained wood. It has 'teeth.'

That said, I dont know why youre worried about peeling. You said yourself, it doesnt see any elements. What exaclty is gonna break down the new topcoat when the previous topcoat lasted 25 years? Paint doesnt just peel for no reason.
 

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Wow. You've really over complicated this. If your talking about the corner trims in the pic that are peeling? Scrape and hit with solid stain. You don't need a bonding/grip primer. You can certainly use an all purpose exterior primer if worried about flashing or bonding, but not needed imo. Urethanes are better on hard interior surfaces imo. 🤷
 

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@finishesbykevyn
will try to simplify.

have undisturbed 25 year old 4 side (6 if you count ends) solid stained clapboard body that has never been recoated but shows no wear or surface breaks, only dirt that we have mostly successfully washed off to even tone and slight color fade.

if I recoat to brighten this modest color fade and even slight mottling and to move the trim color edge while recoating the trim, want to use the highest grip product possible over clean cured unbroken paint (eer solid stain) . My understanding is that is the technology embodied in the polyurethane grip primers.

While I understand these are "problem primers" are maybe specialty products to avoid sanding and for difficult surfaces, e.g. pressure treated, I have to admit I wonder why I wouldn't employ the technology most of the time given that the pricing is not extreme.

For example, I have lots of folks who tell me how their diesel engines start no problem in the cold, but I use engine heaters; not because the engine won't start cold, but because it's a better result for the engine not to start it cold–even if it would do so. So 'grip' paint seems like a belts and suspenders approach even where traditional products like solid color stain are, as @Holland notes, "self priming" and not particularly prone to peeling.

Where I have a job that seems to peel no matter what in specific areas, given perhaps lack of back priming and various moisture issues driven by either migration of humidity from inside the building envelope or exterior moisture and sun assault, I haven't found that it makes that much difference how crazy I go over using the best coatings, because the peeling is driven by building problems and often related to failure of undercoats rather than the latest coat. But where, as here, I have virtually unblemished surfaces from an adhesion perspecitive I'm contemplating focusing on the best adhesion product since I got 25 years out of the existing system without failure but I can't duplicate that because that solid stain was applied to uncoated clapboards.

Not finding any top coats with this 'grip' technology -except maybe really extravagant catalyzed marine coatings like "awlgrip"- I'm wondering why ,or whether I might try tinted grip primer as a finish and what are the contraindications aside from the boilerplate manufacturers recommendations. I don't have a concern about warranty for the job. We own the building, and this addition is on the back of the house, not particularly visible and somewhat pedestrian contemporary minimalist trim compared to front of house complex siding and trim we often encounter. So i can experiment although my whole point in experimenting is to get a good job even if it might be considered outside the norm of industry practice.

I'm getting the basic vibe that that would make me a mad scientist. I can appreciate that many pros here necessarily follow manufacturers recommendation and their own experiences within the range of practice those recommendations allow. I don't mean to disavow testimony of careful approaches they have been successfully employed. But I'm pushing theoretical boundaries and asking for a brief suspension of disbelief to critically examine the proposition. Although I won't get perfect side by side because of sun and weather exposure, this has 7 faces (which is why theres is so much cut in of corner boards even with generally limited trim, so I could try one or two faces of 'grip-primer finish' as a test compared to solid stain.

hope that is not totally confusing or brings together the concepts I have expressed in the disparate interstices of this thread so far thanks.

brian
What is your occupation?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Wow. You've really over complicated this. If your talking about the corner trims in the pic that are peeling? Scrape and hit with solid stain. You don't need a bonding/grip primer. You can certainly use an all purpose exterior primer if worried about flashing or bonding, but not needed imo. Urethanes are better on hard interior surfaces imo. 🤷
Maybe ive over explained, but obviously it hasn't gotten through. Im debating whether to coat the intact clapboard surfaces and with what.
 
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