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It's not whether you agree or disagree, debate or not, its the facts. The facts are 25 bucks is not practical for a legitimate business at least in Cali. and I see contractors do it all the time. Even if you were a owner operator acting under a sole proprietor, one would have to charge at least 35 an hour, anything less your just spinning your wheels. I haven't attacked the OP in any matter, I have confronted what seems to be Illegitimate, which I can not and will not ever condone. These threads are just another "going rate" which can and are deceiving. As I stated already, their not just hurting themselves but the industry as well, which we all legitimate business owner should be protective over.
 

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I've painted enough years that I can't get out of bed for some of the figures I am reading in this thread. If painting was about going to work, applying paint to walls, and watching 3-4 scantily clad models/strippers/prostitutes do exotic dances in the background while you work with a mid-afternoon 'treat' every 2:30. Then sure I could see painting charging $25-$30 shop hours. But it's not that way. Not to mention as a solo operator much time has to be invested meeting with new homeowners and doing estimates, work just doesn't plop in your lap. Even if you could work 2,000 man-hours a year - you'd be putting in at least another 300-500 hours doing estimates and meeting with homeowners.

It's one thing if you have bigger crews, larger jobs that take extended amounts of time - then it's not about what to charge per hour - it's about what 'net' profit margin the market will support to supply your volume business model - and then figure the man-hour from that. From watching guys in my area, I'd say if they're charging $35/hr - they'd be lucky to make 15 grand of real income after all is said and done. Between all the weather and the seasons - small shops get in perhaps 30-40% of all theoretical billing hours in a year.
 

· PinheadsUnite
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Gabe,

You are ASSUMING a lot about the OP. And you KNOW what they say when you ASS-U-ME.

I agree, that on the surface this kind of wage APPEARS to be fraught with all sorts of issues, but we do not know for CERTAIN. He said "Northern California", not San Francisco, Sacramento, Monterey, Pacifica, or other known high rent areas. As you know, "NoCal" is a huge place with LOTS of diversity of income needs.

FYI, just did a search, In Glenn County the per capita income is $14,069 and the median household income is $32,107

Not saying your assumptions are wrong, just saying it's not accurate to assume with so few facts.
 

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I was able to live in San Diego and charge minimum $35.00 T/M
and survive. spinning of the wheels so to speak.

There was NOT alot of breathing room and I was NOT ever going to get ahead and make enough money per year to afford a modest home, have a savings, or buy healthcare.

It would have to be double or close to a minimum of $500 a day to make headway, long-term.

Small time painters-working for peanuts are not the threat to the industry. I also am not advocating unlicensed business.


I think the biggest issue that our country faces/this industry (or will not face) is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND ILLEGAL WORKERS.

It does no good to compare prices...every situation is different, every person, every state, every city, every job.

I don't usually ever charge enough to = success. But I walk away from my daily work very happy that I cared about what I am doing as far as application and stay tuned into quality.

I do believe in business there is a bottom line. That line does not equal the cheapest products on the market for my profit making.

I can live and work in WV for next to nothing in comparison to California....



Some jobs have to be done under the guidelines of T/M,(remodels as an example) but I agree that the way to profit is a direct estimate.
 

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Brother DaArch, not trying to pee in any ones river, and its perfectly fine if you do not agree with me. You don't need a degree to figure this one out, hell just a few days in business should give the revelation. I know that it doesn't matter what city you live in Cali, cause its the state laws and taxes which effect us Cali people. I'd highly doubt a clientele that makes 30k could even afford a painter for 25 bucks and those home that are averaging 14k, can you say "Mobil Home" :) being that I know what it takes to run a legitimate business in Cali, cause I do! I think I have a better understanding than ya do. So I will stop assuming and move on to, I know better :)
 

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I was able to live in San Diego and charge minimum $35.00 T/M
and survive. spinning of the wheels so to speak.



I think the biggest issue that our country faces/this industry (or will not face) is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND ILLEGAL WORKERS.
I wonder if the asshats that hire illegals & create the demand for their labor realize that someday real soon the illegals will just start their own business & compete directly against the guys that allowed them to work in this country.
 

· Painting & More
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I wonder if the asshats that hire illegals & create the demand for their labor realize that someday real soon the illegals will just start their own business & compete directly against the guys that allowed them to work in this country.
No need to wonder. Concrete crews, lawn & landscapers, framers, roofers, drywallers, spinkler installers, etc. all now have latinos owning and running them, in most states I would presume. The owner has papers, licenses, etc., but his workers are fresh from the border. I know because I speak enough Spanish to ask them and they all tell me straight up where they're from and how long they've been in the US!
In Dallas, many of the NC painters were hispanic crews.
 

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Brother DaArch, not trying to pee in any ones river, and its perfectly fine if you do not agree with me. You don't need a degree to figure this one out, hell just a few days in business should give the revelation. I know that it doesn't matter what city you live in Cali, cause its the state laws and taxes which effect us Cali people. I'd highly doubt a clientele that makes 30k could even afford a painter for 25 bucks and those home that are averaging 14k, can you say "Mobil Home" :) being that I know what it takes to run a legitimate business in Cali, cause I do! I think I have a better understanding than ya do. So I will stop assuming and move on to, I know better :)
Soooo....
McDonalds, Walmart, the local YMCA, the stores in the mall, all charge considerably more then $25.00 an hour?
 

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When I was a solo operator it was every weekday, many Saturdays slinging paint. No marketing, no advertising, etc. 2,000 hours slinging paint was no problem. Estimates were done usually on the way home from work or evenings.
 

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I think the biggest issue that our country faces/this industry (or will not face) is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND ILLEGAL WORKERS.
American businesspeople illegally employ people, pay them an illegally low amount, which is illegal and unethical.

Hardworking people without options work hard for next to nothing, face persecution from racists and nationalists, and often provide for a large, struggling extended family, many of whom the work is estranged from.

So why are people always yelling about "illegal workers," when the criminals are illegal employers?
 

· SeHablaEspañol
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American businesspeople illegally employ people, pay them an illegally low amount, which is illegal and unethical.

Hardworking people without options work hard for next to nothing, face persecution from racists and nationalists, and often provide for a large, struggling extended family, many of whom the work is estranged from.

So why are people always yelling about "illegal workers," when the criminals are illegal employers?
Wow, that's pretty deep...
 

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American businesspeople illegally employ people, pay them an illegally low amount, which is illegal and unethical.

Hardworking people without options work hard for next to nothing, face persecution from racists and nationalists, and often provide for a large, struggling extended family, many of whom the work is estranged from.

So why are people always yelling about "illegal workers," when the criminals are illegal employers?
From just a quick Google search

One of the more popular claims by illegal immigration proponents is that those who enter the U.S. by breaking the law are invariably "hard-working" and "law-abiding" once they get here.
That argument, however, has one major flaw. According to Justice Department statistics and the analysis of immigration experts, the "law-abiding" claim often isn't true.
As Investors Business Daily reported in March 2005:
"The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California's prison population, creating a massive criminal subculture that strains state budgets and creates a nightmare for local police forces."
Pat
 

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I got to back Big Dog...at least a little bit anyways. I live and work in Sacramento, Ca. While I charge more than 25 p/h, I see sole prop painters that are licensed, bonded, etc....and are painting for 25 p/h and less, out here right now!

Here are a few things to consider about NorCal. The majority of the region is in a severe economic funk. Layoffs are happening all over the place, and unemployment is around 15%. New construction is slow, repaints are steady but HO out here are really pinching pennies.

People are dying for work. Lets look at that 25 p/h hour figure. Take out taxes, advertising, licensing fees, bonding, truck costs, depreciation costs, insurance costs and other "soft costs" and you can easily take half of that 25 dollars p/h away. So...the guy charging 25 bucks per plus materials is making say...$12.50 per hour. If the guy is working steady (hopefully) 40-50 hours a week thats $2,000 - 2,500 per month take home.

People out here ARE working for that wage!!! and not just hacks.

Heres another example. I bid a two story house ext repaint 2400 sq ft, two coats, quality paints, good work etc etc....My bid was 3500...HO gets two other licensed bids that I saw bid quotes for 1400 and 1700. I couldnt believe it and the HO thought I was way too high. I later saw the finished product and I wasnt real impressed, but the house was painted and looked ok...it was painted and to some / many HO thats all they want.

So...go easy on Big Dog. While its not my working rate, and I dont like customers in that range, i'm not going to badmouth a guy who is just trying to keep working in a tough area.

James.
 
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