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Epoxy Dude
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566 Posts
Hi Guys,

Being on the manufacturing side of things, I don't always understand the bidding intricacies that are probably common knowledge to you guys. I hope you guys will treat me gently if these are stupid questions:

I'm wondering why a painter would try to talk someone out of doing work??? Is it just better to do that instead of telling a homeowner that you don't want to do a project for them? Why not just give a bid that outlines what will be done for a certain price? Why not price the jobs that you are not that interested in at 3x the normal price? Why not sub jobs out?
 

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Systems Fanatic
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1,390 Posts
Wolverine,

I talk customers out of doing work fairly often. I usually do it because they don't need the work done.

For example, they think they need their house painted because it has a little mildew. It was painted a few years before and the paint is in good shape, other than the mildew. They just need a cleaning (which is a service we provide).

I do this because it is the right thing to do. They call me because I am the expert. They want my advice. I give it to them. I tell them the truth.

There are long term benefits to doing this. These customers appreciate the honesty and I sleep well at night. If someone wants to get ripped off, that's their business, but I won't be a party to it.

This may not address the situation you have in mind.

Brian Phillips
 

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FT painter/FT dad
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1,254 Posts
I'm wondering why a painter would try to talk someone out of doing work??? Is it just better to do that instead of telling a homeowner that you don't want to do a project for them? Why not just give a bid that outlines what will be done for a certain price? Why not price the jobs that you are not that interested in at 3x the normal price? Why not sub jobs out?
1- Not sure
2- Honesty is the best policy
3- This is what is typically done in a contract-not understanding the question
4- That is dishonest and will result in no referrals and a bad reputation
5- That is a good idea, keeping in mind the subs are good, honest, and you make money off the job
 

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Epoxy Dude
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566 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I talk customers out of doing work fairly often. I usually do it because they don't need the work done.

For example, they think they need their house painted because it has a little mildew. It was painted a few years before and the paint is in good shape, other than the mildew. They just need a cleaning (which is a service we provide).

I do this because it is the right thing to do. They call me because I am the expert. They want my advice. I give it to them. I tell them the truth.

There are long term benefits to doing this. These customers appreciate the honesty and I sleep well at night. If someone wants to get ripped off, that's their business, but I won't be a party to it.

This may not address the situation you have in mind.
You're right I should ahve been more clear... In my opinion, what you wrote is kind of a 'given'. What I meant is... when someone is unsure about a project why not sub it out? price it to cover yourself? why just turn it away without even trying?
 

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Rock On
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2,451 Posts
Many times the H/O simply has a bad idea
I try and talk them out of it

Often in a case like this it's them thinking a coat of paint will fix anything, or those "quick fixes" that hose the next owner
Other bad ideas would be painting a food prep area, or painting a tub or shower tiles
 

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236 Posts
A given it is.
Please explain in detail to us pro's who know how to produce a quality long lasting cost saving refinishing job (no quick fix here slick) to the consumer why it's a bad idea.:whistling2: go speed racer goooo.
 

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Rock On
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Please explain in detail to us pro's who know how to produce a quality long lasting cost saving refinishing job (no quick fix here slick) to the consumer why it's a bad idea
1) I don't know how to produce a quality long lasting cost saving (over-tile) refinishing job, so I'm not sure I can answer that
Most of the people I talk to about painting tile are the
"Can't you just paint it?"
"No sir, I can't..."
"Why can't you just paint it?"
"It'll just flake off"
"I don't care, house'll be sold by then"
"It'll leave a mess for the new owners"
"that's their problem"
-type deals

Most are not looking for a quality long-lasting anything
I know of no way to "(just) paint 'em"
I'll try and talk them out of it
IMO, it's a bad idea

2) I have a tile guy I can sub to, and another I can refer to
Suggesting re-tiling is not an issue for me

3) The painting the countertop thing, I realize it could be legal in private homes, and perhaps maybe in commercial settings some states even (I don't know about that), but in the areas I work in painting commercial food prep surface areas is illegal, and I tend to stick with that
IMO that's not a real good idea painting a cutting board or a potential cutting board
I'm not sure I could be convinced other-wise
It would have to be some kinda finish

4) If I knew how to produce a quality long lasting cost saving (over-tile) refinishing job, I'd think differently I'm sure
But I don't
I'd like to learn though
Hell, I'd like to do a color fade on my own bath wall tiles
And a complete color change on my own bath floor tiles
No classes in that out here that I know of...'cept maybe they'll have a DIY lesson at the Home Depot...heh, heh
 

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Epoxy Dude
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566 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Too busy to handle it.
I can understand that. But, doesn't it hurt everyone to 'talk them out of doing the work' instead of just saying "We're too busy to handle a job like that right now" and let someone else do the work? Economically, even if someone else gets the job, isn't that is good for everyone. I mean, even if it is your main competitor... doesn't that mean that they are putting time/effort into this work you don't want and diluting their own efforts to compete with you? I'm just thinking... the more work their is out there... the busier the competition is... the less time they have to compete with you... which means everyone can expect to make more money.

Again, my perspective is not from a contractor point of view. But, this seems very economically logical to me.

Many times the H/O simply has a bad idea
I try and talk them out of it
That makes sense to me. I think that is a pretty good reason...

Other bad ideas would be painting a food prep area, or painting a tub or shower tiles
Ummm... our products were used to paint thousands of square feet of food prepping areas last week... It is an OLD perception that these areas can not be painted. HOWEVER, you have to do your homework and get the right products. Some areas require USDA, FDA, or even an NSF approved coating system. There are also products out there to paint tile (with longevity) from ourselves, TNEMEC, and ICI Devoe.

3) The painting the countertop thing, I realize it could be legal in private homes, and perhaps maybe in commercial settings some states even (I don't know about that), but in the areas I work in painting commercial food prep surface areas is illegal, and I tend to stick with that
IMO that's not a real good idea painting a cutting board or a potential cutting board
I'm not sure I could be convinced other-wise
It would have to be some kinda finish
There are MANY systems out there for refurbishing countertops that are... well... just stupid! However, there are also products that work very well. I'm not aware of any state where it is categorically illegal to paint commercial food prep surfaces. Most states require the coating to have an approval for direct food contact. The coating systems for this type of service are typically higher end products.

4) If I knew how to produce a quality long lasting cost saving (over-tile) refinishing job, I'd think differently I'm sure
But I don't
I'd like to learn though
Send me your address...
 

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Rock On
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2,451 Posts
It is an OLD perception that these areas can not be painted. HOWEVER, you have to do your homework and get the right products. Some areas require USDA, FDA, or even an NSF approved coating system. There are also products out there to paint tile (with longevity)
I'm not aware of any state where it is categorically illegal to paint commercial food prep surfaces. Most states require the coating to have an approval for direct food contact.
Ah haaa....makes sense
Send me your address...
Will do
:thumbup:
 

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Rock On
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2,451 Posts
But, doesn't it hurt everyone to 'talk them out of doing the work' instead of just saying "We're too busy to handle a job like that right now" and let someone else do the work? Economically, even if someone else gets the job, isn't that is good for everyone. I mean, even if it is your main competitor... doesn't that mean that they are putting time/effort into this work you don't want and diluting their own efforts to compete with you? I'm just thinking... the more work their is out there... the busier the competition is... the less time they have to compete with you... which means everyone can expect to make more money.
This is well said, and deserves some thought by everyone

There is an awful lot of "talking customers out of" things that the contractor doesn't do in the contracting fields
...or attempting anyway

I see it over and over again

When the contractor says "You don't want to do that" because they don't want to do that, not all H/Os come away with a changed mind
Often they come away with a diminished view of contractors in general

How do you like it when you go into Best Buy to buy a particular big screen TV, and the salesperson says "The Sanyo X-J 7000?....You don't want That!" then goes on about the model he gets a $50 spiff for this week
 

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Epoxy Dude
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566 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I like that...

And, what if you are in the store... and the dude doesn't reall feel like selling tv's that day... So... he just spends his time talking you into keeping your OLD tv!

:jester:
 

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FT painter/FT dad
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1,254 Posts
I like that...

And, what if you are in the store... and the dude doesn't reall feel like selling tv's that day... So... he just spends his time talking you into keeping your OLD tv!

:jester:
I can't see ^^that^^ happening (at least not here) but I get your point. Did an estimate the other day-the trim was outragous. I have categories when I do my estimates. Let's just say the trim fit into my "heavy prep" category. I told the HO that the time it will take us to fully prep the trim could possibly be the same as if they just had it all replaced. I suggested for them to get at least 1 estimate for replacing it all and compare it to my estimate (which I will separate trim for them).

I'm only being honest, and quite frankly I think that was a nice gesture. Was I trying to talk the HO out of work? Yes, but for good reason and maybe a money saver for them.

So talking a customer out of work could be a good thing as well.
 

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I can't see ^^that^^ happening (at least not here) but I get your point. Did an estimate the other day-the trim was outrageous. I have categories when I do my estimates. Let's just say the trim fit into my "heavy prep" category. I told the HO that the time it will take us to fully prep the trim could possibly be the same as if they just had it all replaced. I suggested for them to get at least 1 estimate for replacing it all and compare it to my estimate (which I will separate trim for them).

I'm only being honest, and quite frankly I think that was a nice gesture. Was I trying to talk the HO out of work? Yes, but for good reason and maybe a money saver for them.

So talking a customer out of work could be a good thing as well.
I do that all the time. Especially with interior hollow core doors.
 

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"I'm wondering why a painter would try to talk someone out of doing work??? "--
Some guys do this, but to my knowledge, the majority of painters don't.

"Is it just better to do that instead of telling a homeowner that you don't want to do a project for them?"- -Didn't know that was a common practice.

"Why not price the jobs that you are not that interested in at 3x the normal price?" - -Thats the common practice. Or just say you're too busy.

"Why not sub jobs out?"
Subs are an option, at times. But pricing it may not fit into the customers budget.
Subs can be competition. Even if you don't want that particular job, there may be future work or referrals.

Giving a job to the competition isn't out of the question. But, not wanting that particular job doesn't equate to not wanting the customer. Yeah, it pulls the competition off his work, but he may very easily convert this customers future work and referrals.
 

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This more coming from the commercial side of things but there are customers that have unreasonable expectations. I would rather turn away work than do a bad job. I have had customers want a 3 coat containment system done in 24 hours durning a shutdown. The product manufacturers have certian procedures that have to be followed to warranty the work, if I don't have the time to follow the specs I walk away.
 

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I can understand that. But, doesn't it hurt everyone to 'talk them out of doing the work' instead of just saying "We're too busy to handle a job like that right now" and let someone else do the work? Economically, even if someone else gets the job, isn't that is good for everyone. I mean, even if it is your main competitor... doesn't that mean that they are putting time/effort into this work you don't want and diluting their own efforts to compete with you? I'm just thinking... the more work their is out there... the busier the competition is... the less time they have to compete with you... which means everyone can expect to make more money.
Sorry, should have explained... some people want too much for thier buck, so in those cases... it hurts everyone to refer them to someone else...etc and frankly, i'm too busy with day to day life much less business, to take stupid jobs. Like, you price a job for soild stain... then suddenly "someone" told them to paint it... they want it for the same amount, caulk/prime/paint/paint... ya I will try to talk them out of it.
 

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speed comes with quality
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yeah, that's why I like commercial and new construction(high end develompents not spec houses)residential home owners always seem to get a bad case of amnesia while the job is in progress.But that's when I thought detailed and signed contracts were a joke...lol
 

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If i know a customer is going to very particular and difficult to deal with, hint: they usually have an interior designer, or if it is a job that I really dont want do tackle for what ever reason, I simply raise my final bid by 30 tp 50 percent. If I dont get it o' well, if I do it will be worth the the hassle
 
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