[vermontpainter]

In the past few months, I have noticed an interesting phenomenon regarding the topic of working for builders.

The general consensus among many of our members is that its not a favorable pursuit. In fact, some have gone on to say that when they stopped dealing with builders, they were able to build a good business.

On the other hand, a quick perusal of our Introductions section reveals a preponderance of threads, often by brand new members, that goes a little something like this:

Hey yall, I'm a newbie from Minnetonka and I just went out on my own last month. Been paintin for 15 years and ready to make a go of it. I dont have much work right now and I'm thinkin of going after work for builders. Any advice on how to get in with those guys? Seems like a great market.Thanks and nice forum you have here, lookin forward to chattin it up with y'all!

Questions:

Why is our general consensus that working for builders is not the promised land? What specific reasons can we point to? (Besides "it just sucks!")

Does anyone here have good long term relationships with builders that are mutually beneficial? Whats the secret?

Why do new people think that working for builders is such a great idea?

 

[NHS]

Working for builders in a moderate to good economic time is a very easy way of keeping very, very busy. Once on board with most "major" builders you no longer need to "look" for business as they will generally keep you as busy as you need to be. Thats the upside. The downside is that they are beginning to regulate with the ferocity of the Federal Gov., which cost's dollars, expectations continue to rise yet the dollars do not, and generally you are expected to to "eat" a lot of extra work. If you manage your business well, develop a good relationship (though thats going by the wayside as well) with C.M.'s when things (economy/housing sales) are moderate to good you can make a good to very good living. When things are bad you will not do nearly as well, primarily due to pricing and "eating".

I have a few clients which I have over a ten year relationship with and what am I doing. I'm getting into repaints, small commercial etc. I won't completely get out of new construction, however I plan on making it a significantly smaller part of my business.

 

[timhag]

Why do new people think that working for builders is such a great idea?

This is funny, for over a year I've been going to the local convenient store. Every morning I would see two painters drinking coffee and over time I got to talking with them. They would boast about working for Heartland homes and how they have work out the ass. Last week they were telling me that they were thinking of expanding to repaints while maintaining new construction. Yesterday they approach me asking if I had any work or if I could use them as a sub because new construction was slow. Then they start to tell me all the horror stories about working for builders.:yawn: I told them that they seemed to be big shoot for the past year. Their reply was, "we didn't want to seem like we were struggling and we're gonna be truthful, working for builders suck.:laughing:

 

[Brian]

I will answer this from the perspective of someone who has never done new construction, but has done some remodel work.

The painting contractor is the low man on the totem pole. He gets the least respect of the trades and is expected to fix everyone's mistakes and damage to his work (for free). He is the last one in and is expected to make up lost time. He'll be bumped from the job because the electrician needs to do something, and when he returns he'll find several holes to repair and finger prints all over the walls (all of which he is expected to do for free). He is expected to produce a quality finish, even when the trim carpenter is creating dust 10' away. That's my short list of why I've stayed away.

I think the appeal is lots of work. And many guys equate lots of work with making money. Even though most are probably losing a few dollars per hour, they don't know it. And when they realize this, they think they will make it up in volume.

I realize that the above views (which have been formed over about 20 years) are a generalization and not 100% accurate. I also know that some do make money doing new construction (which is a new realization).

Brian Phillips

 

[MAK-Deco]

Brian - I love the comment "creating dust 10' away" brings me back when I was doing a basement finishing project and the trim guys wanted to set up and do some cutting when I was down there varnishing the trim in the same room and when I complained they looked at me like I was the ass...

 

[NEPS.US]

Where to begin.......I could write a book....There are pros and cons ...just like with all work...pick your poison:
Pros: providing you are working for a good builder and sales are good
- frequent work
- steady income
- move from house to house
- repetition builds consistancy and speed = higher profit
- build a clientel list with new homeowners
- save money and time in advertising and estimating

Cons:
- sales stop...so do you
- sales stop....so does the money owed to you
- sales stop.....you have to re-invent you company
- get complacent and lack knowledge in current bidding and sale techniques
- hard to raise prices... year to year
- expectations of free work
- waiting to get paid ....usually last
- excessive punch list due to other trades
- your margin is directly effected by the plasterer and the carpenter
- Poor scheduling will kill your margin
- A GC that cant control his sub's will kill your margin
- A GC that doesnt factor for "extra's" will kill you
- The painter is usually the only sub that has money held back until the punch. I always factor for a 8 hour punch. If its more the GC usually will not pay because it is out of his pocket and cant chargeback other subs because they have been paid.

 

[NEPS.US]

I cut most of my builders a year ago. My biggest builder (who I had been loyal too and had been with for 6 years) had two developments (75 houses each)breaking ground and was dangling the work like a carrot to the lowest bidder. He was trying to drive my prices down and not paying his bills for 90 - 120 days. I cut him while he owed me 10's of thousands. It hurt the first month but I replaced the work quickly and have actually doubled my business for doing so. I was dedicating so much time and money into this builder that I was loosing sight of why I was in business. I was more like his employee and he was cutting my wages. Expensive lesson but I have grown from it. I, since have increased my prices .... and increased business. I still do 60% new constuction but I am more selective on who I work for and never let them get too far ahead on money or control. Working for builder's can be great and is a good way to incease volume. If you are a small shop just starting out I think that trying or starting out with new construction is a death warrant. If you dont have the experience it will sink you.

 

[Dave Mac]

I cut most of my builders a year ago. My biggest builder (who I had been loyal too and had been with for 6 years) had two developments (75 houses each)breaking ground and was dangling the work like a carrot to the lowest bidder. He was trying to drive my prices down and not paying his bills for 90 - 120 days. I cut him while he owed me 10's of thousands. It hurt the first month but I replaced the work quickly and have actually doubled my business for doing so. I was dedicating so much time and money into this builder that I was loosing sight of why I was in business. I was more like his employee and he was cutting my wages. Expensive lesson but I have grown from it. I, since have increased my prices .... and increased business. I still do 60% new constuction but I am more selective on who I work for and never let them get too far ahead on money or control. Working for builder's can be great and is a good way to incease volume. If you are a small shop just starting out I think that trying or staring out with new construction is a death warrant. If you dont have the experience it will sink you.

I feel you on this, and can relate, good stuff in their:thumbsup:

 

[vermontpainter]

NEPS

You could right a book. You've hit lots of big fat nails right on the head.

 

[daArch]

I'm not going to disagree with any of this, and NEPS especially had it mostly pinpointed. (You could write a book ? I think you just did, my friend :thumbup: )

BUT, it does depend largely on the builder and the type of work they/you do.

Higher end builders generally have less pressure on them and therefore impart less on you.

Now, as you all know by now, I no longer paint, BUT still have many buddies who do, so I hear all THEIR stories.

Two of them are name Peter

The first Peter has been subbed by a high end builder for about 15 years. He gets paid well (never even submits an estimate), has a good relationship, timely payments, and never told to cheapen the work up. AND calls me in to do the wallpaper. :thumbsup:

2nd Peter used to work steadily for another high-end builder. But this builder decided to heighten his profit margin and was forever on Peter's ass about rates (believe me, for the quality he gave, he was NOT expensive). Finally the builder hires the Brazilians - first for exteriors and now for it all. And obviously he's getting what he's paying for.

BUT, whether you're working on your own or for a builder, we (painters) are still low man, the SLUG. We are still cleaning up after the plumbers, electricians, and other Prima-Donnas. Would it really be THAT much of a trouble to pick your wire clipping out of the sink ?? Or vacuum out the electrical boxes ?? Or sweep up the piles of dust under the holes you've drilled/cut in the walls ?

Anyway, although working for builders is usually fraught with more cons than pros, there are some around who treat EVERYONE well. At least that has been my experience, but I've always gravitated towards the high end work. I'm sure it's a lot different at the other end of the scale.

 

[NEPS.US]

I agree DA ..... It also depends on what kind of volume you are doing .. I do have a few great custom builders but they might only do 1 or 2 houses a year. I am also in a nice high end development that does 1 - 3 houses a month and they treat me great ...... but at one time I was doing 2-3 houses a week for a few good size developers.... thats when it got out of control.
The high end builder will usually not risk using a new guy with limited experience on their work. I think most of the new guys here asking about "getting into new construction" would have a tough time finding reputable builders in this economy.

 

[vermontpainter]

I'm not going to disagree with any of this, and NEPS especially had it mostly pinpointed. (You could write a book ? I think you just did, my friend :thumbup: )

Arch

For a long time, NEPS' posts were very concise and to the point, often going something like this:

"Screw you guys. I'm going home."

It is such a pleasure to have him writing paragraphs now. Lets dont discourage it!

 

[timhag]

I'm not going to disagree with any of this, and NEPS especially had it mostly pinpointed. (You could write a book ? I think you just did, my friend :thumbup: )

Arch

For a long time, NEPS' posts were very concise and to the point, often going something like this:

"Screw you guys. I'm going home."

It is such a pleasure to have him writing paragraphs now. Lets dont discourage it!

Yeah, I remember the good old days.

 

[NEPS.US]

I'm not going to disagree with any of this, and NEPS especially had it mostly pinpointed. (You could write a book ? I think you just did, my friend :thumbup: )

Arch

For a long time, NEPS' posts were very concise and to the point, often going something like this:

"Screw you guys. I'm going home."

It is such a pleasure to have him writing paragraphs now. Lets dont discourage it!

ohhh Scotty ....have you had 1 too many Magic Hat 9's tonight?

screw you...i'm off to bed!

 

[vermontpainter]

Yeah, I remember the good old days.

It was funnier than ****e when it came out the other night. He called some clown a donkey. I laughed even harder than I laughed at his baby pic that you posted tonight.

 

[NEPS.US]

It was funnier than ****e when it came out the other night. He called some clown a donkey. I laughed even harder than I laughed at his baby pic that you posted tonight.

I really need to let go of my emotions ...I think?

 

[vermontpainter]

ohhh Scotty ....have you had 1 too many Magic Hat 9's tonight?

screw you...i'm off to bed!

Nope, you and Tim just have a way of putting the fun in disFUNction!

 

[timhag]

I really need to let go of my emotions ...I think?

 

[daArch]

TOO FUNNY Glad I found you guys

Number 9 ???

Don't mention that too loudly to PWG. He just got converted. After a life time of drinking swill made in StL he was introduced to # 9 a few weeks ago. He liked it ....... a lot.

 

[daArch]

It also depends on what kind of volume you are doing .. I do have a few great custom builders but they might only do 1 or 2 houses a year. I am also in a nice high end development that does 1 - 3 houses a month and they treat me great

And that's when all is right with the world. The secret is, how does one work this way ALL YEAR?? Year in and year out !!

but at one time I was doing 2-3 houses a week for a few good size developers.... thats when it got out of control.

I can dig it, man.

The high end builder will usually not risk using a new guy with limited experience on their work. I think most of the new guys here asking about "getting into new construction" would have a tough time finding reputable builders in this economy.

agin, spot on.

And they say you are JUST coming out of your shell and actually writing complete sentences?

Naaaa.

You've done this before.