This is my own opinion, others will disagree but on bid work it's none of the customers business what you charge per hour, how much material you used, or if you want to mark it up for the hassle of going to the paint store so often. Bid the job with a total price no breakdown!

Now, on a T&M job breakdown your hours multiply by whatever your labor rate is and bill them for all paint, caulk, sandpaper or any other sundries you use.

Remember that painting is a business, not a charity.

 

I agree with brushman. On a bid job there is no need to break down your invoice. A simple "Painting of X as per quote" will do. They all ready know the price and they don't need to know the profit your making. On a t&m job you will need to break down the price as much as possible. The more detailed it is the less problem you'll have with people questioning the invoice.

 

When doing T&M statements (invoices) I will typically list out the paints and primers but for all of the rest, I just put down, “sundries”, and lump them together. Though in parentheses I may put something like, “ tape, plastic, roller covers, etc.”, so they know what I mean by sundries.

 

RH, I agree but you're giving people a lot of credit for knowing what sundries are, especially in this day and age!

 

I am just starting my business and I have been doing jobs for time and materials while I get an idea of how to make an accurate bid.

My question is for the invoices. Should I itemize and list each of the materials items?

I know I will have a couple categories of paint.

10 gallons eggshell --

5 gallons semigloss

etc

but I am also going to throw in a roller, the tape, a few other things.

do I list each thing separately? Do people include copies of receipts on an invoice?



And also , for instance, like my caulk. I think I used 4 or 5 tubes out of a case of 10.

just itemize half a case of caulk?



What else is included on an invoice? I am working out how to go legit , and I will have to figure out sales tax and all for this state. I guess with a good bid I would calculate in taxes. but for now one property manager keeps giving me 1099's and I keep thinking , "wait a minute, my time and materials didn't take into account my taxes." I already charged him too little for time$ and that makes it difficult to raise it. Thats just a mistake that i took as a lesson learned.

You are the second person on here recently that has mentioned having to pay sales tax. We do have to do that in MA. Is it just for labor, or is it also for materials? Seems like if it is for materials, an item would be taxed twice. Once when you buy it and then when you charge the customers. Technically,we have to charge sales tax on martetials but only if we upcharge, which is one of the reasons I do not upcharge. On bigger jobs I will add labor costs for the time it takes me to get the materials.

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I think you would have to be correct on this Pete. If you purchase five gallons of paint for $200 dollars including tax, and then turn around and bill your customer for the $200, you are just breaking even, having already paid the tax upon your purchase. No profit made, hence no tax.

Now if you upcharge $10 per gallon and bill your customer $250 for the paint, you would need to pay a sales tax on the extra $50 you made, at least that seems to be the common sense way it should work.

Much better to add in a percentage on your labor for the time and effort you spent ordering, picking up, and getting the product to the site. That is what I do even though we have no sales tax to contend with.

And just to be clear, this is just my view on how it I think it should work. A CPA would be the one to confirm this stuff with.

 

The following paragraph is the result of a two minute google search titled "sales tax obligation for time and material in Idaho"

From web site:
A cabinetmaker agrees to build cabinets and install them in a home. The bid for the job includes the cost for labor and materials. The materials cost $1,000. A contractor doesn't charge sales tax to the customer, so the bid should be high enough to cover any tax paid on materials without itemizing the sales tax on the bid. If the tax rate is 6%, the cabinetmaker must pay $60 sales tax to the material supplier (or, if the supplier doesn't collect Idaho sales tax, the cabinetmaker must pay $60 use tax to the state). The customer's bill should include a materials cost of $1,060. The bill might read:
Job materials
$1,060

Labor
$3,000

Total
$4,060

(If sales tax is charged on the bill, the customer can refuse to pay it. If it's charged in error and paid, the contractor must report and pay the sales tax collected to the state and still must pay tax on the materials.)

 

You have to pay sales tax on the material unless you provide your supplier with your sales tax ID and get an exemption. Totally worth marking up and itemizing your paint on the invoice.

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Do not itemize cost. Dont help them figure out your profit margin. Also forget time/material. There's a thing called perceived value. All businesses are using it to maximize profits.

 

If painters relied on a homeowner's perceived value of a paint job, we'd be working for minimum wage.

Perceived value has more to do with what's trendy, nostalgic, unique and has the potential to increase in value rather than what amounts to a maintenance service. But it's a free market. You can charge whatever is tolerated.

 

This is what I send a potential client after I figure the bid. Then, when they say yes, I have them sign then add a contract, collect 10% to put them on my schedule. Finish work, collect remainder 90% due. My pay, employee pay, material costs, overhead costs, material overhead, profit are mine and mine alone to know. And, don't ever fall for the "this other guy bid this, so can you match it." That's insulting, plus the longer you do this, the better and more efficient you will become, plus get to charge more for it.


Also, just do t&m for small handman stuff, like less than $500 for the whole job.

 

In PA (as many other states) any upcharge on materials is not subject to sales tax. The contractor pays the sales tax when the materials are purchased, and that's it. Kind of defies logic, but I'm not complaining.

You would benefit from sitting down with an accountant. The internet isn't the best place to get tax advice. :biggrin:

 

DittonWilson where in Idaho are you at?


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Isn’t Idaho one of those states that even if he tells you, you likely won’t know where it is? :vs_worry: :devil3:

 

Invoices are not the same as proposals (estimates)

I use PEP estimating software and they offer 3 different levels of proposals.

One level they have EVERYTHING itemized. Personally, I don't want to show my clients that much information. I use their MEDIUM proposal where only the areas have a price total.

The LOW has just the Grand Total. I call that the super stealth mode...lol

After the job is finished you send an invoice for the balance owing. PEP has that built in too.