I really can't imagine a business model where I hire subcontractos, pay them as employees and expect anything but a disaster.

 

I know there are many here that like to gloat about their huge success, for the most part I think that guy's experiences are dead on in this industry. I'd say the majority of guys that are 'successful' do it on the backs of immigrant labor that they mistreat and pay fecal matter for a tremendous amount of worker productivity. And then said owners make digs at lazy American workers, because they refuse to work their fingers to the bone for the lousy wages this industry pays - lousy was even admitted by that CertaPro Company - at 40% gross profit margin for what these guys charge that comes out to about $16.47/hr - from which you have to pay for company overhead and profit - so each worker brings in $658/week into the company to keep it going an contribute an owner salary. Wow. The worker on the other hand gets $13.39 - but out of that comes both worker and company side payroll taxes and workers comp, all direct overhead before gross profits. After you take that much money, you're coming dangerously close to paying minimum wage.

 

I couldn't agree more about the slumlording of American labor.

I work 4x harder than all my guys combined, and I make about 10x more than all them together

Though, I guess it could be worse....

 

Thanks for posting that Greenguy. I agree it is a sad look into the CertaPro world. Hopefully others considering buying into that will find this useful. I know PT ranks extremely high in online search results.
I ran into a past client the other day. He was using some company to help him find a print shop to buy. He had no experience in the print industry and thought he could buy a turn key operation and make money from day one. I was dubious to say the least. God help me I can't imagine why anyone would pay to buy a painting company! At least not one you have to give a cut of every job to someone else!

 

Never understood the soundness of it either. Or business partners for that matter. Why would I want to open a business where I split the money with someone else? Unless that business partner is bringing a tremendous amount of cash in with him what does he offer that I couldn't just pay an employee for? Idk. People do dumb stuff all the time.

 

Never understood the soundness of it either. Or business partners for that matter. Why would I want to open a business where I split the money with someone else? Unless that business partner is bringing a tremendous amount of cash in with him what does he offer that I couldn't just pay an employee for? Idk. People do dumb stuff all the time.

Sometimes it can be better with a business partner. Both invest in the beginning, one may have a better sense at the business side and one may have a better sense with the brush.
I wouldn't say anyone is an idiot for doing so as it can be beneficial doing if either way.
There are definitely some days I wish I didn't have to do this all alone. Have somebody there who is just as invested as I am who wants success just as much as I do and will work just as hard as me? Doesn't sound so bad.

Yes you are giving up potentially more money to another owner, but if you think about it, that's two people's effort searching for work, half the time doing paperwork. If you were just a two man team one of you guys could stay on the job site while the other Is looking at jobs, meaning you wouldn't have to cut any days short.

 

But does this really play out well over time? In my experience, no. People change. People's needs change. And that's a good thing. But if you're splitting things say 50/50 Brushwork vs Bookwork, or whatever, it's not going to be too terribly long before one of you reaches or surpasses the other in your respective 'specialty'. At what point does that initially perceived equal division begin to tilt? Because you can 100% guarantee its going to. And now what?

Or, better yet, what happens when your growth outpaces your partners abilities? You've done well after two years but the books and all the managerial grind are too much. You hire an accountant, a lawyer etc. Now what's this guy really brining to the table in a still equitable amount?

Too messy. You need a book keeper? Hire one! You only have to pay them, not split any and every cent with them. AND you can always fire them if something goes wonky. Which will always happen.

 

As Plainpainter mentioned, the numbers just don't work. The margins in this biz are tight enough without having to pay "royalties" to the home office. The CPP home office salesman are simply in it for the $$$ and nothing else. "The plan" sounds like simply a basic legal document to cover themselves and offer some basic biz advice to the franchisee. If you can find decent painters, it would still be tough but maybe you could make a few bucks - if not you have no chance. And whatever you do make would be exponentially higher on your own.

 

The worker on the other hand gets $13.39 - but out of that comes both worker and company side payroll taxes and workers comp, all direct overhead before gross profits. After you take that much money, you're coming dangerously close to paying minimum wage.

$13.39 isn't a bad number depending on experience. As a statistician you know good and well you're comparing gross and net numbers to enhance your argument

That certa pro thread on the other forum was depressing, I thought I learned some hard lessons in life but that's an expensive way to find out "if its too good to be true, it probably isn't"

 

I talked to a certa pro guy a few years ago an he offered me 30% of the bid... I provide labor/materials/comp/insurance etc etc ...he made a point to mention NO CHEAP ****.. an then he checks the job at the end .... I literally laughed right at him for a few min's an he goes ...''what? you haven't even seen our bids yet''............really??? really??? .......anyway after about a minute I figured him to have zero painting experience just some nut with a college background who bought into a pipe dream..

 

I'm >$3/hr for exterior WC alone.

 

But does this really play out well over time? In my experience, no. People change. People's needs change. And that's a good thing. But if you're splitting things say 50/50 Brushwork vs Bookwork, or whatever, it's not going to be too terribly long before one of you reaches or surpasses the other in your respective 'specialty'. At what point does that initially perceived equal division begin to tilt? Because you can 100% guarantee its going to. And now what?

Or, better yet, what happens when your growth outpaces your partners abilities? You've done well after two years but the books and all the managerial grind are too much. You hire an accountant, a lawyer etc. Now what's this guy really brining to the table in a still equitable amount?

Too messy. You need a book keeper? Hire one! You only have to pay them, not split any and every cent with them. AND you can always fire them if something goes wonky. Which will always happen.

That's all a good points and I do know someone who got a big loan with a partner and after the first job the other guy bailed.
But if you both have a plan, rules and regulations and can work really well with each other than there can be a lot of upsides. But with a lot of planning and discipline

 

you have to know how to work the certa pro system... it takes time and well....you get the point.....

 

no comment:no:

 

I can't sympathize too much with someone who would decide to invest into a painting franchise. Like wow! How could one even sell such an idea.

 

The training is pretty intense for these owners....some are better than others...
There down fall is they obviously have no experience in the field....I've never seen there sales presentation but I can imagine its pretty awesome with the prices they get.....

 

How many PT Members have subbed for a CertaPro Franchise Owner?

Most of my work for the last 3 years has come from CertaPro in my area.

 

How many PT Members have subbed for a CertaPro Franchise Owner?

Most of my work for the last 3 years has come from CertaPro in my area.

what % do you get ?

 

I have never dealt with nor do I want to ,but they advertising like crazy in my area on TV and radio ,and actually knocked on my Buddy's door who is a painting contractor asking him if he would like a quote ,I guess they didn't see his truck that's lettered up with his business.

 

That lazy Todd guy?

 

Certa pro is the Walmart of the painting trade. The corporate big business in regards to our thing. They have the capital to advertise more than the small businesses that typically exist in this trade. It's set up for them to make money while everyone else struggles to make minimal wage if anything. $250k to start a franchise? For residential painting? I started my business with a 24ft ladder, 2 brushes and a bucket.
They made their money off you right there in that initial "investment" I can do what they do if someone invested 25k with me.
They do actually help us small businesses when I read the negative consumer reports/management experiences that give these awful reviews of their certa experiences.

 

I don't think I have ever seen a CertaPro advertisement. Aside from online I mean

 

I don't think I have ever seen a CertaPro advertisement. Aside from online I mean

I get advertising letters in the mail all the time, see them in magazines, and have recently heard them on WFAN 660 (New York AM Radio Sports Station) on a 30 second radio commercial. I couldnt believe it. Big bucks to advertise on the Fan during Mike Francesa's broadcast hours.

 

I had never even heard of Certa pro except on here, or if i had i didn't realize they were any different that the hundred other paint company's around. Then yesterday I was walking by the card rack at the local BM and saw a Certa pro card.

 

they run TV adds around here all the time ..........''they even closed the gate so the colonel wouldn't get out''

 

If one works for CP, one takes a 50% cut and still has to pay for insurance, tools, labor, etc.

Why not, instead, invest that lost 50% into your own marketing for the 1st year. If you're willing to work for 50% less, then you should be willing to put at least that much towards your own lead generation campaign and not have to be someone's b.

I simply don't get it.

 

If one works for CP, one takes a 50% cut and still has to pay for insurance, tools, labor, etc.

Why not, instead, invest that lost 50% into your own marketing for the 1st year. If you're willing to work for 50% less, then you should be willing to put at least that much towards your own lead generation campaign and not have to be someone's b.

I simply don't get it.

Best business advice I've seen on here for a long time.

 

As of right now I'm really to busy to sub jobs but I still do for some reason....but if a contractor isn't....its a good route to go...the way I use to see it was....you can do your own jobs and have a three day weekend....or you can sub some jobs and work 7 days a week...some money on a sunday is better than no money....there is a lot of tips and tricks to maling this work but I can work.....your not going to get rich but going from an hourly painter to subbing is a big pay jump.....and it will teach you a lot....

 

I can't possibly be understanding this right... You basically buy the job from Certapro for 45% of the total and they supply absolutely nothing except the job itself?

I buy jobs for another company sometimes that doesn't do spray work. They will offer me the larger exteriors, roofs, and other spray jobs they come across for 10-20% off the top. That can work out good sometimes. I'm thinking about buying a big roof job on a petrol bulk plant right now..... But 45%! That's friggin incredible! Do they even give you a T-shirt?


I do see Richmond's point about using it for a filler.. Nice interiors in the dead of winter maybe, but I doubt they let ya be that selective about it.

 

I can't possibly be understanding this right... You basically buy the job from Certapro for 45% of the total and they supply absolutely nothing except the job itself?

You are 100% correct.... Or in my case when I subbed for the CP here I got 52% of the bid. The only work they had to do was get the job. :whistling2:

If you are only getting 45% of the sale price, and they underprice the job to begin with, you could be getting as little as 1/4 of the jobs actual value.

Or less. The worst job I subbed that they bid was a massive two story deck with about a gazillion spindles..... for..... wait for it..... here it comes....

$600.00

That means I got $300.00 out of which I had to buy the materials!!!

They told me in the shop before I went to the job that it was an easy 1 day job that could be knocked out with a weenie roller and a brush.

When I got there you better believe I was pissed. I called the guy (CP franchisee name withheld) and started going nuts. Luckily he was cool because I think he realized his idiot estimator really f'ed it up with the bid and so he paid me 15 an hour which is what I originally made when I was an hourly employee for him.

Ridiculous.

I still can't believe there are still guys out there schlepping it for those kinds of deals with CP.

 

As of right now I'm really to busy to sub jobs but I still do for some reason....but if a contractor isn't....its a good route to go...the way I use to see it was....you can do your own jobs and have a three day weekend....or you can sub some jobs and work 7 days a week...some money on a sunday is better than no money....there is a lot of tips and tricks to maling this work but I can work.....your not going to get rich but going from an hourly painter to subbing is a big pay jump.....and it will teach you a lot....

Why not do your own jobs 7 days a week?

 

We basically are right....I'm busier now than I have been in the 8 years I've been in business but I can't turn down money..plus I always have a place to go if needed..plus who knows if this will keep up...I hired a few more and I'm up to 14 guys now....don't want to slip on my work....when I bring a guy on I promise them 40 plus hours . Its up to them if they wanna work it...

 

If you are only getting 45% of the sale price, and they underprice the job to begin with, you could be getting as little as 1/4 of the jobs actual value. Seems like it is a whole pyramid full of suckers, except the executives at the top of the CPP food chain who make money no matter what.. Almost sounds like the same chain of command as most mafia outfits, and the guy at the bottom is always the one taking the beating.

 

I do not believe you are looking at everything there is to look at in this case.

Sounds to me like you have been drinking the cool-aid an going with the flow.

 

Good to see there are more subs out here other than myself

 

Oh! By the way. I only do interior work.

Not looking to work more than 5 days a week.

Not interested in growing my business or having employees.

This is what I have found that best suits me for now.