[celicaxx]

Curious if those of you who strictly follow recoat times wait the prescribed time between cuts? And then wait the prescribed time after cutting to roll? Because you are rolling into your cuts by necessity, you are technically “recoating” when that roller hits that dry cut line.

By that logic, it would take you two days to paint ANY wall using a paint with a 4-hour recoat time (most any SW wall paint).


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Well, I've had this issue from working with other painters. I worked on my own a long time and just had no exposure to "normal" work practices. I had this exact logic, so my serious way of painting a room is to cut and roll a wall or two at a time. Then I can roll into still wet cuts, and then I also don't need to do any funny business like using a mini roller at the top ceiling line to blend the cuts in to roller texture and that sort of junk. Everything looks even as it's all drying at roughly the same time, minus the 5-10 minutes or whatever per wall for cut ins (in an average generic bedroom sort of room, sorry I'm not as cool as Jack Pauhl... :/ ) I also like it better as I can cut a little bit heavier and not be as worried about feathering/pulling it all down with the brush, and if I do happen to get runs, the roller will pull them down.

But this is my weird way of painting, it's apparently oddball and bizarre. When I work with others, it's different and the results are on them, but on my own I do paint this way. Adapted to a crew I don't see why you can't do it this way, but nobody does for ????? reason, especially as with a crew you can just have a guy cutting and rolling right at the same time.

 

[CApainter]

Well, I've had this issue from working with other painters. I worked on my own a long time and just had no exposure to "normal" work practices. I had this exact logic, so my serious way of painting a room is to cut and roll a wall or two at a time. Then I can roll into still wet cuts, and then I also don't need to do any funny business like using a mini roller at the top ceiling line to blend the cuts in to roller texture and that sort of junk. Everything looks even as it's all drying at roughly the same time, minus the 5-10 minutes or whatever per wall for cut ins (in an average generic bedroom sort of room, sorry I'm not as cool as Jack Pauhl... :/ ) I also like it better as I can cut a little bit heavier and not be as worried about feathering/pulling it all down with the brush, and if I do happen to get runs, the roller will pull them down.

But this is my weird way of painting, it's apparently oddball and bizarre. When I work with others, it's different and the results are on them, but on my own I do paint this way. Adapted to a crew I don't see why you can't do it this way, but nobody does for ????? reason, especially as with a crew you can just have a guy cutting and rolling right at the same time.

I'd say your cut in process demonstrates a very logical and sound approach to maintaining a best painting practice. Probably the main reasons why it is avoided by the majority of painters is that it requires extra work and slows down the momentum of performing one task. And we all know higher production is supported by single tasks that can build up momentum.

 

[Mr Smith]

Curious if those of you who strictly follow recoat times wait the prescribed time between cuts? And then wait the prescribed time after cutting to roll? Because you are rolling into your cuts by necessity, you are technically “recoating” when that roller hits that dry cut line.

By that logic, it would take you two days to paint ANY wall using a paint with a 4-hour recoat time (most any SW wall paint).


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I'd have to disagree with your interpretation of a "re-coat". Rolling after cutting in does not qualify as a 're-coat'. I roll the wall about 20 minutes after it has been cut in. It might be dry to the touch but it is not 100% dry like after the recommended 4 hours between coats.

The manufacturer also goes to the extremes with their recommended re-coat times.

Rolling into a wet cut line can be a disaster with acrylics which can tack up in minutes. You always want to wait until the paint has set up and has a dry film on the surface before rolling, especially with paints like Aura. The only times I've ever had an issue was when rolling into a wet cut.

 

[mug]

Curious if those of you who strictly follow recoat times wait the prescribed time between cuts? And then wait the prescribed time after cutting to roll? Because you are rolling into your cuts by necessity, you are technically “recoating” when that roller hits that dry cut line.

By that logic, it would take you two days to paint ANY wall using a paint with a 4-hour recoat time (most any SW wall paint).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'd have to disagree with your interpretation of a "re-coat". Rolling after cutting in does not qualify as a 're-coat'. I roll the wall about 20 minutes after it has been cut in. It might be dry to the touch but it is not 100% dry like after the recommended 4 hours between coats.

The manufacturer also goes to the extremes with their recommended re-coat times.

Rolling into a wet cut line can be a disaster with acrylics which can tack up in minutes. You always want to wait until the paint has set up and has a dry film on the surface before rolling, especially with paints like Aura. The only times I've ever had an issue was when rolling into a wet cut.

Exactly.

 

[CApainter]

The more I read through this thread, the more I don't think I give enough credit to feelings. It's like to be a real painter, you have to be more sensitive to the feel of things rather than the science. Maybe in the same way a master mechanic might dismiss the use of a torque wrench in favor of his feelings.


Next paint job I do, I'm going to hug a gallon of paint and see if it performs better.

 

[Lightningboy65]

I'd have to disagree with your interpretation of a "re-coat". Rolling after cutting in does not qualify as a 're-coat'. I roll the wall about 20 minutes after it has been cut in. It might be dry to the touch but it is not 100% dry like after the recommended 4 hours between coats.

The manufacturer also goes to the extremes with their recommended recoat times.

I'm not following your thinking here. The debate in the whole of the thread is does recoating before the manufacturer's specified time generally have any effect on the integrity of the finish. Rolling over a coating that was applied 20 minutes prior (and has dried to touch) would constitute recoating before the manufacturer's recommended time.

I would fully agree with your statement regarding manufactures going to extremes with recoat times.

 

[Lightningboy65]

The more I read through this thread, the more I don't think I give enough credit to feelings. It's like to be a real painter, you have to be more sensitive to the feel of things rather than the science. Maybe in the same way a master mechanic might dismiss the use of a torque wrench in favor of his feelings.


Next paint job I do, I'm going to hug a gallon of paint and see if it performs better.

Feel the paint.....be the paint!:biggrin:

 

[PACman]

actually, all i wanted to know was why this one decorina was pissed at me for selling her paint with such a long dry time. But what the heck?

 

[CApainter]

Feel the paint.....be the paint!:biggrin:

Freakin hippies. lol

 

[celicaxx]

I'd say your cut in process demonstrates a very logical and sound approach to maintaining a best painting practice. Probably the main reasons why it is avoided by the majority of painters is that it requires extra work and slows down the momentum of performing one task. And we all know higher production is supported by single tasks that can build up momentum.

I take a different attitude on going fast, then again I'm small potatoes. I really don't like being rushed, I don't think I'm necessarily ridiculously slow, I just find it's better to gain speed from efficiency, then better tools and materials. For me, I find my combo of a 1/2" microfiber 14" roller, Wooster cage, and a Wooster Silver Tip 2.5" oval sash to be able to take hours off jobs compared to normal stuff, like most Purdy stuff. I timed myself using a "Whizz" 3/8" nap roller vs an Arroworthy 9/16" microfiber at 30 minutes vs 10 minutes in one room. I think there's lots of ways to up efficiency without "cheating." I think especially in a residential setting (I know commercial and NC is a different ballgame where I have some, but a lot lower experience in...) most of your time is moving furniture, covering everything in plastic, cleaning years old soda off the baseboards, masking baseboards to the floor, patching stuff, priming stuff, sanding stuff, etc, etc, that takes exponentially more hours than you spend actually painting anyway, so to me even if my method takes more time, it's kind of moot, at least in my mind.

In commercial I kind of "got it" with time, as time really is money for commercial business owners, and the traffic is probably going to mess up any paint anyway, even if it's gummy peely crap on day one, if it wasn't on day 30 it'd probably be scuffed up anyway. Obviously this applies to say... Wal-Mart, and not a doctor's office or law firm.

Also interestingly, I guess some people here are right, though American paint companies don't really put it down in their TDS. If you go to the thread with Endras from Indonesia, I looked up a TDS of one of his paints and they actually spec'd different recoat times at different humidity and temperatures. That said, I still just felt *really* uncomfortable with "hey oh look it's dry, throw another coat on" after 20 minutes, and then some bizarre stuff like cut cut roll roll techniques.

I guess it comes down to this. In painting there's all kinds of variables that can ruin your day, be it the surface, or just the temperature or humidity. Or the company can make a worse batch of paint or change something and not tell you. I figure why add another?

That said, I've spent a few years in this field and in some ways I enjoy it, but in a lot of ways it feels very race to the bottom. :/

 

[CApainter]

It used to be that trades craftsmanship lent itself to a slow and steady pace that supported exceptional outcomes, albeit not necessarily at a Squire's ransom. But somewhere along the line, humble earnings were not enough to keep up with society's insatiable appetite for shiny things, thus larger profit demands placed pressure on production and eventually rendered craftsmanship obsolete in favor of speed.

So here we are today, molesting freshly painted walls in our haste to feel if they're dry enough to second coat before the sun goes down.

 

[Gwarel]

Working today on an wooden door. Lots of sanding and a coat of coverstain. Got a coat of Aura exterior satin on at about 2 o'clock, 4 hour recoat time recommended. It was humid today, but at around 4 we decided to try the finish coat. Quite a bit of drag, (rolling and tipping) so I'm probably going to have to recoat the door tomorrow. Win some, lose some........

 

[PACman]

Freakin hippies. lol

They're everywhere these days.

 

[RH]

It used to be that trades craftsmanship lent itself to a slow and steady pace that supported exceptional outcomes, albeit not necessarily at a Squire's ransom. But somewhere along the line, humble earnings were not enough to keep up with society's insatiable appetite for shiny things, thus larger profit demands placed pressure on production and eventually rendered craftsmanship obsolete in favor of speed.

So here we are today, molesting freshly painted walls in our haste to feel if they're dry enough to second coat before the sun goes down.

Something bothered me about this post and it finally hit me that there is a bit of a smugness and even distain directed aimed towards painters who own and operate their own businesses and may have to make choices that allow them to compete and be successful. There is also an undercurrent of distaste for anyone wanting to make money, as if we want to actually do well, we are greedy and worthy of disdain. I seriously doubt that any of us would do what we do strictly for the fun of it or to feel good. We all work to make a buck.

If I remember correctly, you work (or worked) for a company largely doing maintenance painting work where I suspect you might have had the luxury of having a fairly comfortable timeline for completing a specific project. Likewise, as a retired teacher, with a fairly good pension, who is in painting as a second career I too have the luxury of not typically being overly consumed by scheduling concerns. I can take my time and if a job goes a bit overlong, I don’t suffer much for it. I won’t exactly call myself a hobby painter but as retirement looms, I find myself with an increasingly relaxed attitude towards profits. But I have worked hard to get there, and to me, that relaxed attitude is a measure of my success.

But running your own business as your complete livelihood means what you get done in a given day is pretty much the definition of being successful. That success translates to (gasp) making money. Being very successful may eventually allow many guys and gals out there be able to buy the “shiny things”, but for many, if not most, success now means earning enough to pay for their housing, feeding their family, buying insurance, clothing their kids, making vehicle payments, all in addition to reinvesting in their business in order to grow. It is a tough tough business to be in, and my hat is off to any and all who chose to do it as their sole livelihood.

I think that as professionals, adopting practices that are deemed (from experience - not from feelings) to give good results without any resulting failures (ex. reasonably adjusting recoat times) is an acceptable practice. They aren’t doing so while fully expecting failure. It is a calculated move that allows them to complete their work in a timely manner which translates into a met timeline which in turn allows them to compete and - yes, make money. Somebody drastically eschewing standard practices, such as spraying an exterior while it’s raining, is inviting failure. Someone taking a calculated and cautious route to increase production, is not a hack painter - just someone trying to be successful in their chosen profession.

 

[PACman]

The more I read through this thread, the more I don't think I give enough credit to feelings. It's like to be a real painter, you have to be more sensitive to the feel of things rather than the science. Maybe in the same way a master mechanic might dismiss the use of a torque wrench in favor of his feelings.


Next paint job I do, I'm going to hug a gallon of paint and see if it performs better.

frickin' paint huggers!

 

[PACman]

Something bothered me about this post and it finally hit me that there is a bit of a smugness and even distain directed aimed towards painters who own and operate their own businesses and may have to make choices that allow them to compete and be successful. There is also an undercurrent of distaste for anyone wanting to make money, as if we want to actually do well, we are greedy and worthy of disdain. I seriously doubt that any of us would do what we do strictly for the fun of it or to feel good. We all work to make a buck.

If I remember correctly, you work (or worked) for a company largely doing maintenance painting work where I suspect you might have had the luxury of having a fairly comfortable timeline for completing a specific project. Likewise, as a retired teacher, with a fairly good pension, who is in painting as a second career I too have the luxury of not typically being overly consumed by scheduling concerns. I can take my time and if a job goes a bit overlong, I don’t suffer much for it. I won’t exactly call myself a hobby painter but as retirement looms, I find myself with an increasingly relaxed attitude towards profits. But I have worked hard to get there, and to me, that relaxed attitude is a measure of my success.

But running your own business as your complete livelihood means what you get done in a given day is pretty much the definition of being successful. That success translates to (gasp) making money. Being very successful may eventually allow many guys and gals out there be able to buy the “shiny things”, but for many, if not most, success now means earning enough to pay for their housing, feeding their family, buying insurance, clothing their kids, making vehicle payments, all in addition to reinvesting in their business in order to grow. It is a tough tough business to be in, and my hat is off to any and all who chose to do it as their sole livelihood.

I think that as professionals, adopting practices that are deemed (from experience - not from feelings) to give good results without any resulting failures (ex. reasonably adjusting recoat times) is an acceptable practice. They aren’t doing so while fully expecting failure. It is a calculated move that allows them to complete their work in a timely manner which translates into a met timeline which in turn allows them to compete and - yes, make money. Somebody drastically eschewing standard practices, such as spraying an exterior while it’s raining, is inviting failure. Someone taking a calculated and cautious route to increase production, is not a hack painter - just someone trying to be successful in their chosen profession.

Most painters are just chasing that Promar dream! Gotta do thousands of them to make a living. Brilliant.

 

[RH]

Most painters are just chasing that Promar dream! Gotta do thousands of them to make a living. Brilliant.

LOL... Well, not exactly sure what Promar has to do with it, I’m sure your professional customers are out to make money too, at least you better hope they are. But I know you can never resist slipping in a SW slam so...

 

[CApainter]

Something bothered me about this post and it finally hit me that there is a bit of a smugness and even distain directed aimed towards painters who own and operate their own businesses and may have to make choices that allow them to compete and be successful. There is also an undercurrent of distaste for anyone wanting to make money, as if we want to actually do well, we are greedy and worthy of disdain. I seriously doubt that any of us would do what we do strictly for the fun of it or to feel good. We all work to make a buck. Reply: Painting has provided me with a very sustainable life style and I will always respect the trade for that. However, I do despise the fact that there are little to no standards followed, or over site which leaves much of the trade application open to interpretation by many painting contractors. I don't find that acceptable.

If I remember correctly, you work (or worked) for a company largely doing maintenance painting work where I suspect you might have had the luxury of having a fairly comfortable timeline for completing a specific project. Likewise, as a retired teacher, with a fairly good pension, who is in painting as a second career I too have the luxury of not typically being overly consumed by scheduling concerns. I can take my time and if a job goes a bit overlong, I don’t suffer much for it. I won’t exactly call myself a hobby painter but as retirement looms, I find myself with an increasingly relaxed attitude towards profits. But I have worked hard to get there, and to me, that relaxed attitude is a measure of my success. Reply: The fact is, I have always been pushed by the powers that be, to provide quantity at a rate that often circumvented best practices and compromised optimal quality. Rarely did I ever have the luxury to have the time to paint in the manner and pace I would have liked. I'm glad you do.

But running your own business as your complete livelihood means what you get done in a given day is pretty much the definition of being successful. That success translates to (gasp) making money. Being very successful may eventually allow many guys and gals out there be able to buy the “shiny things”, but for many, if not most, success now means earning enough to pay for their housing, feeding their family, buying insurance, clothing their kids, making vehicle payments, all in addition to reinvesting in their business in order to grow. It is a tough tough business to be in, and my hat is off to any and all who chose to do it as their sole livelihood. Reply: I agree. It's unfortunate that the economic times and societal expectations have made it difficult to budget time appropriately and provide craftsmans quality. That's the point of my last post in response to celicaxx.

I think that as professionals, adopting practices that are deemed (from experience - not from feelings) to give good results without any resulting failures (ex. reasonably adjusting recoat times) is an acceptable practice. They aren’t doing so while fully expecting failure. It is a calculated move that allows them to complete their work in a timely manner which translates into a met timeline which in turn allows them to compete and - yes, make money. Somebody drastically eschewing standard practices, such as spraying an exterior while it’s raining, is inviting failure. Someone taking a calculated and cautious route to increase production, is not a hack painter - just someone trying to be successful in their chosen profession. Reply: As I mentioned earlier in the thread, people can reinvent the wheel all they want. More power to them. And many enjoy success doing that. But when they dismiss standard best practices altogether (like not following manufacturers recommendations before changing the wheels on a product) then announcing that on a professional forum as the new norm, or as a systems challenge, it seems like a dis service.

RH, I hope you don't take my replies as a personal attack on you. I respect you. I'm just providing an opinion. I'd hate to be banned again just because of my views. But if you and the rest of the staff are inclined to do so, then so be it.

 

[RH]

RH, I hope you don't take my replies as a personal attack on you. I respect you. I'm just providing an opinion. I'd hate to be banned again just because of my views. But if you and the rest of the staff are inclined to do so, then so be it.

Absolutely nothing ban worthy in what you said. I was just taking exception with the idea that the majority of painters are hacks cutting all four corners on a house. Most I know are hard working, conscientious pros just trying to make a decent living.
I doubt it was your intent for it to come across that way, simply how it struck me.

 

[Mr Smith]

I just think the topic of cutting in and waiting 3-4 hours to roll is absurd. Cutting in and rolling exactly the way I outlined is the standard practice for most good or high-end painters. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.


That's the last I'll ever say about this topic.